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 Posted: Mon Aug 28th, 2017 11:43 pm
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Evan Atkinson
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Picked up this 35" monster Freshy pedestal last night - the only fan I've ever scored locally.  A broken goose-neck mount, and likely some parts are missing, but the price was too good to pass up.  I will get it running to cool the garage.


Note the tag: this is a D.C. Fresh'Nd Aire ....:dude:.  Don't know how typical or uncommon that is for Freshys?  No separate motor maker listed anywhere on the motor shell.  Model 35, "Patents Pending...", looks like this was a two speed motor, what with the 400-800 RPM info on the tag.


Freshy gurus and collectors familiar with these, please chime in and tell me what I hauled home (circa, is that blade original?) and better yet, advise me what I'm missing  :up:















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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 12:35 am
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David Allen
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WOW that has to be a rare machine.

Have you run it? Very cool!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 12:41 am
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Tom Morel
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Great score Evan. I've never heard of DC Fresh'nd'Aire fans. Where in LA did you find it?

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 12:53 am
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Evan Atkinson
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It was lounging outside under a rather dirty tree in the corner of someone's Silverlake backyard.  Not exactly a collector goldmine area for fans, given its reputation as a hipster haven.  I think they were using it as a conversation art-piece.

No David, I have not run it yet.  I'll have to take it apart and do some evaluating before putting power to it.  If it had a speed selector switch like most Freshys I've seen, it's gone.  The only visible wiring is the pigtails sticking out the back.

Last edited on Tue Aug 29th, 2017 12:55 am by Evan Atkinson

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 01:56 am
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Larry Hancock
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Amazing!!!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 02:15 am
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Robert Grathwol
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Nice find ! Never seen one before. Blade and cage look correct with the 430 west Erie st address. Maybe missing rear cover on motor. 

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:04 am
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Charles Tedrick
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It's an early model 35. They made them with dc motors but this is the first I've seen with one. I know of another member with one of these so they're out there. I have also seen sales brochures with this fan from fresh nd aire,  courtesy of the same forum member. It looks like it's missing a motor cover. It wouldn't surprise me if it used to have perfume cylinders as well

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:05 am
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Russ Huber
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Patents pending........my bet is 35.  DC makes it a needle in the haystack. :D

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Last edited on Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:07 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:06 am
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Charles Tedrick
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The mounting neck is extremely similar to a Gaylord :light:

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:10 am
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Russ Huber
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Charles Tedrick wrote: The mounting neck is extremely similar to a Gaylord :light:
Gaylord(Coin-op business) marketed for Devore and Ballentine........Fresh 'nd-aire and Russell Electric.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 03:33 am
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Charles Tedrick
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Russ Huber wrote: Charles Tedrick wrote: The mounting neck is extremely similar to a Gaylord :light:
Gaylord(Coin-op business) marketed for Devore and Ballentine........Fresh 'nd-aire and Russell Electric.
I know.... It's just another nice little piece of the puzzle fitting together  :up:

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 Posted: Tue Aug 29th, 2017 09:12 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Thanks for all the replies and information.  If anyone out there has more information, and/or an example of this fan where you can show me the missing pieces, I would be grateful.

There are two screw holes on each side of the motor casing (see below).  Maybe it did have the scent/perfume canisters.  It must have had a switch and resistance coil assembly in the back, mounted to the motor somehow.  It's all gone.





























Last edited on Tue Aug 29th, 2017 06:44 pm by Evan Atkinson

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 Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2017 05:14 am
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Russ Huber
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That's a shame there is so far nothing to guide you with the missing pieces. My Russell Electric(Gaylord) must be roughly same circa with fragrance canister mounting holes on each side of the stator.  It would be my impression some of the circulators were specifically for air movement.


The rear portion of the motor gives no sign of a bullet mount.  .....?


Are there 4 wires exiting the motor?




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Last edited on Wed Aug 30th, 2017 05:15 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2017 05:21 am
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Mike Kearns
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 Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2017 05:36 am
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Evan Atkinson
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4 wires exiting the back.  Don't know what a bullet mounting on the back would look like?  There are two tapped holes on either side of the rear armature retaining bolt/plug.  I can poke the wool lubricating packing through them.  Wonder what they're for?

Last edited on Wed Aug 30th, 2017 08:08 am by Evan Atkinson

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 Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2017 12:02 pm
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Charles Tedrick
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You may want to remove that motor mounting neck and have it welded back together before something really bad happens. It was probably knocked over in the past and that's what destroyed the motor cover and broke the neck in several places. I have a friend that can fix damage like that so well that you can't tell it was ever broken. If you need help with that just let me know.  :up:

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 Posted: Wed Aug 30th, 2017 12:09 pm
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Charles Tedrick
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This is just speculation based on the fresh nd aire I have with perfume cylinders. The cylinders would be mounted to brackets that would then attach to either The motor or the motor housing. The holes on the sides of your motor do look like they are the right spacing and placement for just that purpose. Yours is going to take some time to figure out because I don't think anyone has ever seen a dc version before 

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 Posted: Thu Aug 31st, 2017 03:04 am
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Russ Huber
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Charles Tedrick wrote: You may want to remove that motor mounting neck and have it welded back together before something really bad happens.
The fan motor mount/pivot is made of die cast alloy(pot metal).

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 Posted: Thu Aug 31st, 2017 03:04 pm
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Charles Tedrick
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Russ Huber wrote: Charles Tedrick wrote: You may want to remove that motor mounting neck and have it welded back together before something really bad happens.
The fan motor mount/pivot is made of die cast alloy(pot metal).
I'm not so sure about that. Some of the parts were cheap pot metal, but not all of them. It's worth the time to have a good welder give it a try.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 31st, 2017 08:24 pm
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Russ Huber
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Charles Tedrick wrote: Russ Huber wrote: Charles Tedrick wrote: You may want to remove that motor mounting neck and have it welded back together before something really bad happens.
The fan motor mount/pivot is made of die cast alloy(pot metal).
It's worth the time to have a good welder give it a try.

Not if it's pot metal.

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 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2017 09:02 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Thank you both for your opinions. I am aware of the challenges of working with pot metal (MuggyWeld anyone?).  I am prepared to give it a go (to try a repair), but would be equally ready to have a new neck machined out of steel or any other suitable metal if need be.  We shall see what works the best.  In other news...

Nothing like a 103° sunny oven-of-a-day outside to help you disassemble something that's been held together for decades by varnish.  Didn't have to use any puller on the cast aluminum blade: with some firm pressure and a l'il PBlaster, it yielded.  General disassembly has been easy so far. Original color scheme for this fan was a black base with silver painted accent rings, black motor, silver-painted cage, silver-painted blade, and an aluminum tag with what appears to be a white background.  The only chrome surface on this fan seems to be the pole.  Surprising, considering how many Freshys I've seen that are all-chrome or polished aluminum.  Note the cast "No. 3" into the underside of the base.

Did the base have rubber feet? Take a look at each of the three points around the base rim that look like holes, filled in with fossilized rubber.  Just noticed that.

Motor disassembly is next. That should be fun.  




















Last edited on Fri Sep 1st, 2017 09:25 am by Evan Atkinson

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 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2017 06:08 pm
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Russ Huber
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You simply dig the remains of the old feet out of the holes with a flat head screw driver tip.  Measure the diameter of the holes and take the measurement to McMaster Carr and size it up with the correct dimensions STEM BUMPER or RUBBER BUMPER.

Attached Image (viewed 364 times):

Newest_Square_Stem_Bumper_547.jpg

Last edited on Fri Sep 1st, 2017 06:08 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2017 06:10 pm
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Russ Huber
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The fan motor mount/pivot could possibly be ALUMINUM being it is not magnetic.

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 Posted: Fri Sep 1st, 2017 06:30 pm
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Charles Tedrick
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Russ Huber wrote: The fan motor mount/pivot could possibly be ALUMINUM being it is not magnetic.It could also be pot metal as that is also non ferrous metal. The best way to test it is to just have a welder see if it can be welded

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 Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2017 01:18 am
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Michael Mirin
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I've seen an ad for that looking fan from 1935.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2017 01:22 am
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Michael Mirin
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It may not have come with a motor cover. The tag is riveted to the motor. It may have been for an industrial app. and not commercial.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2017 06:54 am
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Tom Morel
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You should bring that to the meet if you can.

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 Posted: Sat Sep 2nd, 2017 09:33 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Disassembled the motor a bit today. Looks good. Neat armature. Slanted slots - that's a new one on me for armatures.  I'm used to seeing rotors with slanted laminations but not armatures.  


Uuuh
















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 Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2017 10:35 pm
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Levi Mevis
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The holes on the back cover of the fan that look like screw holes are your holes for your brushes (which I'm surprised no one else on here noticed that being that this is a DC powered fan) the threads in the holes are for the brush holders which screw into the holes on either side, so it seems this motor is also missing its brushes and brush holders as well. Which means that the point that was brought up earlier in the thread about this fan not having a bell on the back might actually be true in the case of this fan because it looks like this fan may have been an industrial fan from a factory, more than likely the switch for the fan was built into the cord or into the pedestal. That's what it looks like anyways to me from the way it looks in the pictures that the OP took of the motor disassembled.

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 Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2017 11:17 pm
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Evan Atkinson
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 Posted: Sun Sep 3rd, 2017 11:34 pm
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Levi Mevis
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OK, well earlier in the thread someone was saying that they thought that the holes on the sides of the back cover NOT on the back were for securing a bell cover onto the back of the fan, also most Freshy fans like that don't have rear bells attached through the back like that.because that would require a 5" screw which would be easily broken. 

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 01:27 am
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Russ Huber
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Without another early DC example, or catalogue/advertisement it is a crap shoot what was originally there.


What could be modified using those two threaded holes in the back of the motor is a means of mounting a radio related rheostat rated to handle the motor pull.  That is what early Russell Electric and Fresh'nd-aire used for speed control.  Central lab radio rheostats out of Milwaukee is what I have witnessed in past.


Would a common tin can later Freshy or other manufacturer bullet back snug fit the back of that motor housing? 

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Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2017 01:28 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 04:26 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Thanks Russ.  This is great information to have.  The fan had at least two speeds, going from the tag info of "800 - 400" under RPM.  If one deduces that to mean two speeds only, then there was something, somewhere in or on the motor to slow it down.  There's nothing inside the motor shell except the field and poles + armature, so any speed control had to be mounted externally.  The only logical place to mount it is on the back end of the motor, and judging by those two tapped holes, something was clearly there.  A radial-style rheostat would work well in that location, and would have been held in place with a bracket of some type.  

Now, following this train of thought, an early style, 1930's rheostat would have used resistance wire to slow down the motor, which would have heated up.  Naturally, such a device would not have been left uncovered, so there was likely a cover over the rheostat (at minimum), but more than likely, the whole back.  There are no holes facing rearward in the back of the motor shell for such an application, so perhaps a cover might have been held in place by a retaining nut, threaded onto a length of nipple that was in turn somehow part of the rheostat assembly? I have seen setups like this on KMC fans of the same period.


Time to find some literature on this beast.

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 05:46 am
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Russ Huber
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.

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Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2017 05:48 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 05:53 am
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Russ Huber
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800 RPM top end sounds kind of slow for a 2 pole DC motor... :wondering:  Unless the blade weighs a ton. :D


What's with the 4 wires exiting the grommet on the motor?  What are the extra set of 2 wires doing?

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 07:51 am
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Evan Atkinson
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About the four wires: I couldn't say.  I haven't measured the resistance values across them yet, but will soon. 

Those rheostat pictures depict a variation of the switch you explained that could possibly work on the back of this motor.  And a neat bullet-back.  It wouldn't mount with the two side screws, but something close to that could possibly work.  Neat switch!


800 RPM top speed did sound slower to me.  But then again, the blades are surprisingly large.  Not too heavy, being cast aluminum, but still. 

Last edited on Mon Sep 4th, 2017 07:56 am by Evan Atkinson

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 08:57 am
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Henry Carrera
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I'm thinking your speeds are the extra wires controlling the field. Maybe a series 800 parallel 400 setup.

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 12:26 pm
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Charles Tedrick
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The extra wires may be used to power the perfume cylinders.  :light:

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 Posted: Mon Sep 4th, 2017 11:34 pm
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David Allen
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I have a feeling the motor is compound-wound and therefore has two field windings in it. One is more than likely a series field, such as seen in vacuum cleaner motors, and other small DC fans. This one will be in in series with the brushes and motor's armature.   Then, wound in with this, is a shunt field winding. This field winding is going to work in conjunction with the rheostat. When you put current in the shunt field, the motor will run slower.

I would love to see how the windings are connected internally and see what the resistances are. This is an interesting motor for sure!

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 Posted: Tue Sep 5th, 2017 12:21 am
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Russ Huber
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David Allen wrote: I have a feeling the motor is compound-wound and therefore has two field windings in it. One is more than likely a series field, such as seen in vacuum cleaner motors, and other small DC fans. This one will be in in series with the brushes and motor's armature.   Then, wound in with this, is a shunt field winding. This field winding is going to work in conjunction with the rheostat. When you put current in the shunt field, the motor will run slower.

I would love to see how the windings are connected internally and see what the resistances are. This is an interesting motor for sure!

The shunt wound motor has field windings connected in parallel with the armature windings. Thus when the motor is operating with a fixed load at constant speed all other factors are constant. An increase in load will cause a drop in speed and therefore a reduction in back e.m.f. A greater current will then flow in the armature windings and the motor power consumption will rise: the magnetic field will be unaffected since it is connected in parallel. Speed reduction is, in practice, very small, which makes the shunt motor an ideal choke for constant-speed variable-load duties.


The series motor has field windings connected in series with the armature windings . With this arrangement an increase in load will cause a reduction in speed and a fall in back e.m.f. The increased load current will, however, now increase the magnetic field and therefore the back e.m.f. The motor will finally stabilize at some reduced value of speed. The series motor speed therefore changes considerably with load.


Psssssssssssssssst.....2 fields..2 speeds, each offered with resistor.....Off-1-2-off......1-off-2

Last edited on Tue Sep 5th, 2017 12:23 am by Russ Huber

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