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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:05 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Hey, guys. Glad to find this forum!
I have an ILG, probably from the early 50s that ran in my building for 60 some odd years before dying a month ago. The motor, I am told, cannot be rebuilt. I have tried replacing it with a new fan, but by comparison new fans seem to be... well, toys.

The fan is 21" wall mounted ILG Type Q, model 213,120 single phase with 1/5 hp motor. 


Any suggestions would be most appreciated!

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:34 pm
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Thomas Peters
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Is there another motor re-builder in your area? Sounds like a second opinion may be in order.

In any case, do you know what happened? Such as bearings, or stator failure?

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:42 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Thomas Peters wrote: Is there another motor re-builder in your area? Sounds like a second opinion may be in order.

In any case, do you know what happened? Such as bearings, or stator failure?

The closest one is 20 miles, but I would travel a lot further. He has a great reputation and has rebuilt motors for friends who have old machines, so I have taken him at his word.

As to the specific problem, it was not bearings. I am afraid I cannot recall the terms he used, as I am not fluent in electrical matters. I can report a great deal of smoke a noxious aroma! 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 08:05 pm
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Tom Morel
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I'm guessing that the windings went out. Expensive to fix, but not impossible for a skilled technician.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 11:08 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Tom Morel wrote: I'm guessing that the windings went out. Expensive to fix, but not impossible for a skilled technician.
Hey, Tom - I'll have to call the rebuilder to get the specifics. Perhaps it is something someone else can do, and if that is the case (and if he hasn't thrown the motor away), I will definitely pursue that path. 

I am not happy with the dinky Chinese replacement - more hp but less air movinng, and it looks and sounds SO WRONG! 

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 Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2018 06:22 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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I have retrieved the motor. Attached a couple of photos without motor cover taken before removing assembly from the wall. 

I would very much appreciate any recommendation of someone who can rebuild this.


Thanks!
Gregory

Ps. I am told the field windings are shot. 











Last edited on Mon Jul 9th, 2018 06:23 pm by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:02 am
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Andrew Block
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I know we have a local place that will rewind them. I don't have a replacement motor for a 213 unfortunately.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:08 am
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Thomas Peters
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While these people specialize in armatures, they might recommend someone to take care of your problem.

http://www.whitearmature.com

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:42 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I know we have a local place that will rewind them. I don't have a replacement motor for a 213 unfortunately.
That is unfortunate, Andrew, but thanks for thinking of it. I am checking out "local" rebuilders up here. A lot of German craftsmen, you know? :D

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:43 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Thomas Peters wrote: While these people specialize in armatures, they might recommend someone to take care of your problem.

http://www.whitearmature.com

Interesting. They're in Wisco but 4 + hours from me. WAY up north! 

 I'll give them a call tomorrow. 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:01 am
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Andrew Block
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I would think any industrial motor house could work on this. It isn't THAT complicated of a motor. Worst case is they wind it for one speed only.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:10 am
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Gregory Merrick
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The fan motor support is an interesting configuration. Does anyone know why the bottom of the three struts is a hollow tube, unlike the two upper struts? Did ILG expect wiring to be run through there, or was it a structural consideration? The tube ends right at the wiring box.





Attached Image (viewed 208 times):

IMG_1895.jpg

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:13 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I would think any industrial motor house could work on this. It isn't THAT complicated of a motor. Worst case is they wind it for one speed only.
I believe it is a one speed, either 115 or 230. 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:34 am
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Andrew Block
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Most were 2 speed. I this 213SH in my shop, which is a one speed on a triac control. 

The tube is for cooling the motor, hence why they called it the "self-cooled motor fan". The pressure from the fan running would pull air through the tube from outside, where theoretically it is cooler and cleaner air than whatever you were exhausting from outside.


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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 03:22 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: Most were 2 speed. I this 213SH in my shop, which is a one speed on a triac control. 

The tube is for cooling the motor, hence why they called it the "self-cooled motor fan". The pressure from the fan running would pull air through the tube from outside, where theoretically it is cooler and cleaner air than whatever you were exhausting from outside.



Hey, Andrew, beautiful machine! If I can get the motor running, I'll bring the assembly back up to snuff. I have a refinishing shop in my building, so no difficulty there. 

I don't have much reason for speed control on this one. It draws cool night air through approximately 4,000 sq', which allows us to live without AC most of the summer, and if the draft is too strong or cool, I can open doors and vents to control it. 

The guys who installed this fan (my building is a decommissioned power plant converted into power company headquarters in '52) did not vent that tube to the outside, but just drilled into a the 4x4 framing and stopped when there was sufficient clearance. 

Do you happen to know what the letters "SH" or "Q" stand for in the model name? I'm guessing the "21" is diameter and the "3" is prop blades...



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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 04:54 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Okay, so I think SH is high speed, SL low speed, and Q.... quiet? 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:23 pm
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote:

I don't have much reason for speed control on this one. It draws cool night air through approximately 4,000 sq', which allows us to live without AC most of the summer, and if the draft is too strong or cool, I can open doors and vents to control it. 

The guys who installed this fan (my building is a decommissioned power plant converted into power company headquarters in '52) did not vent that tube to the outside, but just drilled into a the 4x4 framing and stopped when there was sufficient clearance. 

Do you happen to know what the letters "SH" or "Q" stand for in the model name? I'm guessing the "21" is diameter and the "3" is prop blades...




That is a neat setup. I know of a house here with an Ilg whole house fan but it is a fairly large one.

I would definitely get that repaired, you won't find a quieter or better fan, and to replace it with one from Grainger would be almost (if not more) than the price of a rewind. If you find a place, I have a 24" I will eventually get rewound, as does another member. Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

I think SH was just short for speed/high. The SH is 1140RPM and the 213S is 1140/855 2 speed. Q stands for "quiet blade", and 213 is 21" with 3 propellers.

You might think about opening up the hole a bit to allow some ventilation. The cooling mechanism is very effective on these, especially as the fans get larger. 

This is my 423 that another member built a starting box and restored mechanically. Ilg put alot of engineering into that blade design, both for sound and for air capacity. They blow air in a straight line at a higher velocity, owed to their heritage as exhaust fans. Lots of fans move the same or larger CFM but the air dissipates a few feet from the blade, whereas the Q blade sort of shoots out a column of air. I can put that 423 at one end of my 40' loading dock and it produces a nice breeze at the other end. You can also comfortably converse in front of it running without raising your voice. It really was a advanced blade design.


Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:28 pm by Andrew Block

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 07:20 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I would definitely get that repaired, you won't find a quieter or better fan, and to replace it with one from Grainger would be almost (if not more) than the price of a rewind. If you find a place, I have a 24" I will eventually get rewound, as does another member. Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

I think SH was just short for speed/high. The SH is 1140RPM and the 213S is 1140/855 2 speed. Q stands for "quiet blade", and 213 is 21" with 3 propellers.

You might think about opening up the hole a bit to allow some ventilation. The cooling mechanism is very effective on these, especially as the fans get larger. 

This is my 423 that another member built a starting box and restored mechanically. Ilg put alot of engineering into that blade design, both for sound and for air capacity. They blow air in a straight line at a higher velocity, owed to their heritage as exhaust fans. Lots of fans move the same or larger CFM but the air dissipates a few feet from the blade, whereas the Q blade sort of shoots out a column of air. I can put that 423 at one end of my 40' loading dock and it produces a nice breeze at the other end. You can also comfortably converse in front of it running without raising your voice. It really was a advanced blade design.

You forgot to mention, "or better looking." The modern iteration looks like it would be at home in a pole barn but definitely not in a turn of the last century German style brick industrial building.

Now that I know about the cooling tube, I'll put it to use.

I love the way the ILG starts up. In no hurry at all. And then it begins to sound as if there may be trouble - perhaps it is shoving the shutter out of the way or the blades hit some sort of harmonic distortion - and suddenly all goes quiet, and you can tell without hearing it that a great deal of air is being moved.

I've got something temporary in that space. While it is rated for the same CFM, turns at a similar RPM, and has a ½ horse motor, it doesn't move anywhere near the same volume of air, and it sounds silly.   

I enjoy watching your videos! Thanks for posting them.

Gregory





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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:05 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote:[highlight= rgb(248, 248, 248);]  Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

Pretty sure that's what happened to mine. The capacitor was destroyed, and I first thought I was smelling diesel exhaust.

Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:05 am by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 03:55 am
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Andrew Block
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The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 04:01 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

So the new ones are sacrificial? 


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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 04:48 am
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Andrew Block wrote: The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

So the new ones are sacrificial? 



Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:04 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original. 


 I suppose the moral here is that if I were to find a used but running ILG, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the capacitor! 


I have been phoning shops about rewinding. As you might imagine, getting an estimate is pretty difficult, but I have found a shop an hour from here that can probably do it, so I'll take it over there to have them look at it. 


Would anyone care to hazard a guess of what would be a reasonable price for rewinding the fields? $400-500, say? 

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