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Patina?  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 07:57 am
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Tim Marks
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All that matters to me is that the fans I collect will last another 100 years. If they're too far gone to get that far, they get restored. If not, I enjoy them as-is.


Whether or not a fan is worth more after having been restored depends entirely on what you paid for it in the first place. There are plenty of $5k+ fans out there that are worth less unless restored.


I would agree that the more rare and valuable the fan, the higher the relative value if it's mostly original.


One interesting thing is brass tarnishes relatively quickly so many of the fans that we all consider beautiful "originals" may very well have been restored 50 years ago. No way to know ;) I wonder how many fans will be around 100 years from now and what people will think of the restored ones after another 100 years of patina upon that restoration?

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 08:45 am
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Jim Kovar
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Steve Stephens wrote: Quoting when posting.  

You can delete irrelevant posts when using the "quote' function.  Just highlight and delete any part(s) of the quoted material that does not pertain to your post.  Thanks, it makes reading the forum easier than when you include two or more previous post material in the quote.  I see 10 posts quoted in one post above.  There is no need for that.

Steve, I've heard that if there's enough nested
quotes within quotes, to the point where there's
no more room for the innermost quote, the whole
thread will self-destruct.  :wondering:


Maybe Larry could verify this?  :wondering:

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Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 09:37 am by Jim Kovar

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 12:19 pm
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George Durbin
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Sorry guys I didn't know how to stop the nesting... I think I do now...

Geo...

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 06:29 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Tim Marks wrote: All that matters to me is that the fans I collect will last another 100 years. If they're too far gone to get that far, they get restored. If not, I enjoy them as-is.


Whether or not a fan is worth more after having been restored depends entirely on what you paid for it in the first place. There are plenty of $5k+ fans out there that are worth less unless restored.


I would agree that the more rare and valuable the fan, the higher the relative value if it's mostly original.


One interesting thing is brass tarnishes relatively quickly so many of the fans that we all consider beautiful "originals" may very well have been restored 50 years ago. No way to know ;) I wonder how many fans will be around 100 years from now and what people will think of the restored ones after another 100 years of patina upon that restoration?

An item's worth on the open market is not predicated on what one paid, in any condition.

Restoration, like patina, has many shades.

Rust is not patina.

Dirt is not patina.

Jeterization is more preservation than restoration.

Many items were patinated at the time of manufacture (like the lamps mentioned above).

Replacement of parts that wear out (like wiring, or springs, or bearings) is called maintenance.

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 06:45 pm
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George Durbin
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I was at a large auction. My bud and I were standing in front 2 rolls of rusted barb wire about 2 feet across and so loosely wound you could see right through them! I Was chuckling at who might buy that... the auctioneer finally got to them. 2 lady's ran up and the younger one said they were works of art! Bidding started and when it was done they got $40 ea. For them!! I have rolled up miles of that stuff and threw them into ditches! So that was when I found out that I am an artist!! My bud is still laughing at me...:DGeo...

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 07:10 pm
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Tim Marks
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
An item's worth on the open market is not predicated on what one paid, in any condition.

Restoration, like patina, has many shades.

Rust is not patina.

Dirt is not patina.

Jeterization is more preservation than restoration.

Many items were patinated at the time of manufacture (like the lamps mentioned above).

Replacement of parts that wear out (like wiring, or springs, or bearings) is called maintenance.

Technically rust is patina. It just not a desirable form of patina in our case. 

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 07:20 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Tim Marks wrote:

Technically rust is patina. It just not a desirable form of patina in our case. 

No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 07:22 pm
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Tim Marks
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

You see the world in absolutes. Wiki says otherwise, I'm sure we can both find sources to support whatever opinion we want:

"On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxidescarbonatessulfides, or sulfates formed on the surface during exposure to atmospheric elements (oxygenrain,acid raincarbon dioxidesulfur-bearing compounds), a common example of which is rust which forms on iron or steel when exposed to oxygen. Patina also refers to accumulated changes in surface texture and colour that result from normal use of an object such as a coin or a piece of furniture over time.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 08:10 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Tim Marks wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:
No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

You see the world in absolutes. Wiki says otherwise, I'm sure we can both find sources to support whatever opinion we want:

"On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxidescarbonatessulfides, or sulfates formed on the surface during exposure to atmospheric elements (oxygenrain,acid raincarbon dioxidesulfur-bearing compounds), a common example of which is rust which forms on iron or steel when exposed to oxygen. Patina also refers to accumulated changes in surface texture and colour that result from normal use of an object such as a coin or a piece of furniture over time.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

Wiki?  really?

We are talking about collectibles.

The key word in any definition that applies is *desirable*.

Rust does not stop at a thin coat, it will eat away all of it.

You can leave the rust on your fans, but you are guaranteeing they won't be around in another 100 years.

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 09:33 pm
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George Durbin
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What about all these porceline signs peeps are buying with rust on them? No one is scaping off that rusty patina...
And I heard that rustoleum has chemicals in it to stop rust from advancing? And I have heard there is stuff you can get to put on rust besides Rustoleum that will arrest its advance...:wondering::wondering::wondering:geo...

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 09:45 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: What about all these porceline signs peeps are buying with rust on them? No one is scaping off that rusty patina...
And I heard that rustoleum has chemicals in it to stop rust from advancing? And I have heard there is stuff you can get to put on rust besides Rustoleum that will arrest its advance...:wondering::wondering::wondering:geo...

Iron plus oxygen in the presence of water (even in the air, ie humidity) equals rust.

Remove access to air and/or water, you stop rust. 

That's why it is painted.


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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 10:15 pm
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William Dunlap
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Hey, no joke, this little girl is named Patina. Don't let her anywhere near your fans. Just saying.


Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 10:29 pm
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George Durbin
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heheh! hi Bill!
My daughter in law is about to have her second baby... She has no name for it yet and its a girl!... guess what i will be suggesting in a few minutes!! muhaha!:evil:evil:evil
geo...

Update!

She said something like no way in H*ll. Who have you been talking to? 

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 02:50 am by George Durbin

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 10:48 pm
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David Hoatson
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Rusty is a fine name. 

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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 10:52 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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William Dunlap wrote: Hey, no joke, this little girl is named Patina. Don't let her anywhere near your fans. Just saying.


Cheers,
Bill

Shoot, I have authentic patina in a can (says so on the label).


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 Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 11:59 pm
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Dick Evins
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I would never accuse the one on the left as being a rusty boat anchor.  To me it looks great in either condition IMHO & I'm not arguing either position cause I have both kinds on my shelf.
If you are going to place them behind museum glass, is one thing, if you want to use it for another 100 years, well that's another thing, again, JMHO.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 12:07 am
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Jim Kovar
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George Durbin wrote: ...rusted barb wire...    ...I have rolled up miles of that stuff and threw them into ditches!So you're the one!...

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barbed wire drive shaft.jpg

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 12:13 am
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George Durbin
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Well that's another way to roll a junk fence up!

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 03:18 am
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Tom Dreesen
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The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 04:27 am
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George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

Errr uhhhh.... No cage or blade? With those items it will command much more! And restored to working condition IT WILL DOUBLE THE $$
And you are right! Its gonna bring a premium!!

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 04:37 am by George Durbin

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:07 am
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

Errr uhhhh.... No cage or blade? With those items it will command much more! And restored to working condition IT WILL DOUBLE THE $$
And you are right! Its gonna bring a premium!!


Apples to apples Geo.

A restored motor only compared to this one.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:17 am
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George Durbin
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William Drabble's restored example... worth much more after restore. Another example... How many more ya need?

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 05:20 am by George Durbin

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:18 am
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George Durbin
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Restored... It is magnificent....

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 05:21 am by George Durbin

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:38 am
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: William Drabble's restored example... worth much more after restore. Another example... How many more ya need?
I would need prices for one. 

What you think and reality may not converge.

Also I would simply point out that the unrestored example was not in the best of condition.

Again, you have to compare apples to apples.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:44 am
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Steve Stephens
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If restored fans are almost always worth more I would like to say that maybe the buyers of restored fans think that they are getting something MORE and BETTER than they would get in an unrestored fan.  That may be true but a restored fan also gives you a modern finish with no patina or history.  The restored fan will almost always look NEW instead of old.  Some people must prefer a new looking old fan with a new finish.  Maybe they are willing to paymore for the benefits, if there are any, of the restored fan.   I'll go with a fan that LOOKS old, IS old, has a finish and patina that is old and has historic character.  For those who don't understand the desirability of nice unrestored fans I will not try to explain.  Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.

Restored old fan = object de art

Unrestored old fan = object of history

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:48 am
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Don Tener
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Steve Stephens wrote: If restored fans are almost always worth more I would like to say that maybe the buyers of restored fans think that they are getting something MORE and BETTER than they would get in an unrestored fan.  That may be true but a restored fan also gives you a modern finish with no patina or history.  The restored fan will almost always look NEW instead of old.  Some people must prefer a new looking old fan with a new finish.  Maybe they are willing to paymore for the benefits, if there are any, of the restored fan.   I'll go with a fan that LOOKS old, IS old, has a finish and patina that is old and has historic character.  For those who don't understand the desirability of nice unrestored fans I will not try to explain.  Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.

Restored old fan = object de art

Unrestored old fan = object of history
I agree. I like both. There are fans that look great as is and need to stay that way and fans that need restored and should be.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:52 am
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George Durbin
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Heheh... Don't make me invoke the old " looks like we will have to agree to disagree" are you?? Evidently working on those beautiful ceiling fans of yours high up on those ladders has deprived your brain of oxygen and there fore some quality thinking through this subject on your part for sure!!:D:D
Geo...:P:P:P
You do know I am having fun here and kidding you! I think it is a good Subject and to see other guys opinions on these matters!

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:55 am
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George Durbin
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Hi Steve!I have them both ways and lovem all!!I do want to run them so I want them to work...Geo...

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 05:57 am
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Heheh... Don't make me invoke the old " looks like we will have to agree to disagree" are you?? Evidently working on those beautiful ceiling fans of yours high up on those ladders has deprived your brain of oxygen and there fore some quality thinking through this subject on your part for sure!!:D:D
Geo...:P:P:P
You do know I am having fun here and kidding you! I think it is a good Subject and to see other guys opinions on these matters!

I'm not making you do anything Geo ...

You are doing a great job all by yourself.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 07:18 am
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Tim Marks
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Steve Stephens wrote: Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.


I don't think people are born into the appreciation of old items. Tastes are acquired over time, regardless of what the tastes are for. Some of us like restored fans, some of us like original fans, and some of us like both! Some of us change what we like as we gain experience. Some of my favorite fans are my really nice original fans with a beautiful patina to the brass. Other favorites of mine are my beautifully restored fans.

Whether or not a restored fan is worth more than a perfect condition original depends on the fan itself. As has been said, the more rare the fan the more I feel that a perfect original one will be worth more than a restored one.

However when it comes to common fans there is no doubt that restored ones are often worth way more than even perfect originals. Good luck selling a perfect original brass bell oscillator for more than $150. But a restored one could easily sell for $500+. 

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 07:51 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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When I think of anything original, I think of the way it was when it was first made! And I can't think on one D-m thing that was ever made....that came with Patina.

Patina is nothing more than (I'm to lazy to clean It!)

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 07:52 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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The END!!!

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 03:57 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Dean!
I bet this is not the end of iit!:D  There are a thousand hits on this thread! A thousand lurkers! So that's quite a few that has an opinion that have not posted yet!

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 04:47 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Dean Steinhaus wrote: When I think of anything original, I think of the way it was when it was first made! And I can't think on one D-m thing that was ever made....that came with Patina.

Patina is nothing more than (I'm to lazy to clean It!)

Then you haven't even read the thread.


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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 06:59 pm
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Michael Rathberger
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However when it comes to common fans there is no doubt that restored ones are often worth way more than even perfect originals. Good luck selling a perfect original brass bell oscillator for more than $150. But a restored one could easily sell for $500+. 

Should read "But a "properly" restored one could easily sell for $500+ although I have seen crap restorations of dime store fans sell for $900 on eBay. There's a lot of poor restorations showing up on eBay lately, and you can tell the difference right away, but I don't think everyone is as discerning or meticulous in their restorations as you and some of the other guys Tim.

I would pay more for a more collectible good original condition fan than a restored one in general, but would pay more for a quality restoration of a more common fan than an original condition one.

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 07:13 pm by Michael Rathberger

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 07:16 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Mike!There are different levels of restorations. MANY LEVELS!! Putting new cords on oiling and cleaning a fan is 1 level... All the way up to the full rotisserie restores taking them apart nut for nut, bolt for bolt! None are more correct than another... If fan manufactures back in the day could get a few more bucks out of a fan, Fans would have been buffed like  a mirror  like the members do here. Don't forget the makers built fans to what the market would bear... If they could sell them they would have made them out of platinum and gold! Just like today, it's about the bottom line...
Geo...

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 08:00 pm by George Durbin

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 07:58 pm
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Michael Rathberger
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George Durbin wrote: Hi Mike!There are different levels of restorations. MANY LEVELS!! Putting new cords oiling and cleaning a fan is 1 level... All the way up to the full rotisserie restores taking them apart nut for nut, bolt for bolt! None are more correct than another... If fan manufactures back in the day could get a few more bucks out of a fan, Fans would have been buffed like  a mirror  like the members do here. Don't forget the makers built fans to what the market would bear... If they could sell them they would have made them out of platinum and gold! Just like today, it's about the bottom line...
Geo...

I don't consider cleaning and lubing a fan a restoration necessarily, I consider it servicing. When I said restoration, I put "quality" in front of it for a reason. It can be painted or paint just  thoroughly cleaned, but at a minimum would include getting it running properly, lubing, rewiring/rewinding, sealing choke and stator, balancing, polishing (or not), feet, cords, replacing worn parts, etc. Some have used the word "preservation" depending on paint and polish, but I see it as restoration nonetheless. 

Fan manufacturers made early fans like they did for a reason. The teens fans are not as ornate for a reason. The swan era fans look like they do for a reason. There's a profit motive in all of it.

 

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 08:48 pm
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Tim Marks
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Which would you rather own?

Preserved Original Fan
http://whiteglovefans.com/blog/2014/3/14/1916-ge-two-star-oscillator
All original parts, paint finish was hand polished to a shine. Electrical components were sealed, head wire replaced. Blade balanced, etc.




Fully Restored Blingtastic
http://whiteglovefans.com/1911-ge-12-kidney/
The works including a motor re-wind.

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 08:53 pm
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David Hoatson
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I would prefer which ever one doesn't have a cracked gearbox :P
Seriously, I like them both, but would lean towards the unrestored one. 

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 Posted: Fri May 16th, 2014 08:53 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Only one easy choice for me Tim and that's your really nice original below.  I have a question for you Tim; if you could only keep one of those two fans which would it be?


Tim Marks wrote: Which would you rather own?

Preserved Original Fan
http://whiteglovefans.com/blog/2014/3/14/1916-ge-two-star-oscillator
All original parts, paint finish was hand polished to a shine. Electrical components were sealed, head wire replaced. Blade balanced, etc.




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