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Patina?  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 02:56 am
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George Durbin
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Heheh...Hi Tom!You assume alot!Do not assume for me or any one else... I will decide...:up:
Above I wrote the absolute truth about fans. As i pointed out earlier... Once I have said something about a fan then there is nothing left to be said. That's an absolute!!:imao:imao:imao
Geo...

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 02:57 am by George Durbin

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 05:08 am
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Tom Dreesen
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No Geo, no assumptions.

You initially asked and through the course of 4 plus pages you have been answered by some very knowledgeable high end collectors of which I am NOT one.

While it is "in the head" of these collectors, it is also a fact of what they are willing to pay for excellent original examples vs restored examples.

It is simply a fact, no assumptions needed.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:11 am
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John Rothrock
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I like what George did with his s4, I'd have probably done exactly the same, fixed what was wrong, cleaned and polished it a bit, I know it's not 5k but it's certainly in the rare category. I must admit the more I look at the polished blades the less I like them, but if they're not laquered then we can watch them patina out nicely. I know he considered painting it red and white, but I talked him out of that.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:12 am
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Tim Marks
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John Rothrock wrote: I like what George did with his s4, I'd have probably done exactly the same, fixed what was wrong, cleaned and polished it a bit, I know it's not 5k but it's certainly in the rare category. I must admit the more I look at the polished blades the less I like them, but if they're not laquered then we can watch them patina out nicely. I know he considered painting it red and white, but I talked him out of that.
Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:27 am
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Steve Stephens
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Tim Marks wrote: Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.
I'm not too sure about that Tim.   Here's an original finish R&M 2110 with very shiny blades.

Attached Image (viewed 885 times):

CIMG2556.JPG

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:28 am
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Tim Marks
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Steve Stephens wrote: Tim Marks wrote: Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.
I'm not too sure about that Tim.   Here's an original finish R&M 2110 with very shiny blades.

Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? 

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:31 am
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Steve Stephens
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Feathervane with original finish and lacquered brass.  Not perfect but still very shiny in most places.  I know it's not the norm but some brass has held up for a century in excellent condition.

Attached Image (viewed 985 times):

CIMG4624.JPG

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:32 am
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Tim Marks
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Steve Stephens wrote: Feathervane with original finish and lacquered brass.  Not perfect but still very shiny in most places.  I know it's not the norm but some brass has held up for a century in excellent condition.

Wow! that one I would agree appears to have century old brass on it, spectacular condition too. Regardless, we both know that most lacquered brass is now brown. 

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:36 am
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Steve Stephens
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Tim Marks wrote: Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? I can't prove it Tim and will let the photos speak for themselves.  The rest of those fans are too nice and original to have been polished.  The blades have to have lacquer on them or they would not be so shiny.  I have seen and had other examples of very shiny brass that, best I can tell, looks like the original and unpolished finish including a 1925 GE AOU which I bought in 1970 with original cords and plug paint and base felt.  It was only 35 years old at the time and the overall condition said "original" through and through.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:37 am
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Steve Stephens
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I do have a nice collection of brass that is brown, no, make that DARK brown and including an R&M 16" Westy tank.  Great patina and a few very small areas of the cast are still bright brass.  .

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:38 am
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Tim Marks
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Steve Stephens wrote: Tim Marks wrote: Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? I can't prove it Tim and will let the photos speak for themselves.  The rest of those fans are too nice and original to have been polished.  The blades have to have lacquer on them or they would not be so shiny.  I have seen and had other examples of very shiny brass that, best I can tell, looks like the original and unpolished finish including a 1925 GE AOU which I bought in 1970 with original cords and plug paint and base felt.  It was only 35 years old at the time and the overall condition said "original" through and through.
Weren't all GE fans polished and lacquered brass? Right up to the gilt finish era? Those are all brown now.
Brass tarnishes even with lacquer over it, it's just a fact of life. Some more than others but it still happens.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:48 am
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George Durbin
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If I had the $$ to buy any fan I wanted I would! My interest lies in fan collecting at this time Should I hit the lottery I would buy the best available whether restored or not. The exotic fans like Hc's, peerless, early emersons, or ge's, bipolars and countless others are wonderful but. Is there anything better looking than the simple graceful lines of a 20 's  westinghouse 16" brass blade fan with a black steel cage? A 12" 20's emerson with brass bullwinkle blades and steel cage? Emmys are everyday workers and are beautiful!. The ge's collar oscillators, kidneys, Brass bell's are great fans to look at and use and appreciate. I think the zenith of fan design was in the teens and twenties. I know there are many who will feel different and it's ok... what's between my ears is what counts!
Geo...

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 06:54 am
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Steve Stephens
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GE catalogs-

1899-  "Polished brass fan, Polished brass guard and trimmings."

1901- ditto

1904- ditto

1907- "guard finished in dipped brass, blades lacquered brass"

1908- "guard and blade finished in dipped and lacquered brass"

Jan. 1909.  "guard, blades and trimmings finished in dipped and lacquered brass".

1911- ditto


Jan 1913- ditto

1924- blades polished brass

I can't tell what the original finish was on earlier pancakes but my 1905 is a very nice original with areas of the blades and cage that sure look to have that gilt like finish which I think is an acid dipped and lacquered brass.  You can see the same dipped and lacquered finish on most any BMY or other GE up until they changed to the wartime steel blades.  Upon returning to brass blades the blades were highly polished through 1929 then painted aluminum from 1930 onwards.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:03 am
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George Durbin
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Hi Steve!
Line up 5 of those r&m's and I will show you 5 different finishes! I have owned 3 and they were all different... It is simple why your finish is so nice, it is because it was maintained! Someone took care of it... Is that so hard to believe? How do we not account for Mrs. Smith just took care of it and polished it occasionally?
Geo...

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:09 am
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Troy Addy
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I thought this was a buy - sell - trade - forum?

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 07:09 am by Troy Addy

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:11 am
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Steve Stephens
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This thread got put here by mistake and probably should be moved by the admins.  Or we can think of it as advice about patina when buying and selling fans.  Now it can belong here.  Patina, 1¢.  Now there is the mandatory posted price for this forum.


George, I think you will find that all of the higher quality R&M fans will all have highly polished brass blades and dipped and lacquered cages from their first AC fans until the end.  What they look like today is what they look like.  What they were when new were all the same I think; polished and lacquered blades, dipped and lacquered cages.

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 07:16 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:21 am
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George Durbin
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Troy Addy wrote: I thought this was a buy - sell - trade - forum?


If your not selling anything, why are you here? Don't participate... If the moderators want to move it, then they will move it.. They can take it down too... So far everyone has been gents and it is a good conversation that is important...  JMHO
Geo..
Ps... join in! Keep it cool! 

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:29 am
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George Durbin
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Steve Stephens wrote: This thread got put here by mistake and probably should be moved by the admins.  Or we can think of it as advice about patina when buying and selling fans.  Now it can belong here.  Patina, 1¢.  Now there is the mandatory posted price for this forum.


George, I think you will find that all of the higher quality R&M fans will all have highly polished brass blades and dipped and lacquered cages from their first AC fans until the end.  What they look like today is what they look like.  What they were when new were all the same I think; polished and lacquered blades, dipped and lacquered cages.

Hi Steve!I agree with what yur sayin. I just know that people back in the day cleaned the lacquer right off those fan blades and many had no maintenance... 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 07:40 am
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Tim Marks
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George Durbin wrote: 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...

Exactly! But apparently regardless of how many owners they had, they're all original until YOU touch it. ;)

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 08:00 am
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Steve Stephens
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George Durbin wrote:  I just know that people back in the day cleaned the lacquer right off those fan blades and many had no maintenance... 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...
I'm not sure how you know that people removed the lacquer on the old fans.   Some may have but for what reason?   Some may have polished the brass for obvious reasons.  I have a large number if not a majority of my fans with original finish or lacquer on the blades and brass.  It's not hard to tell if the lacquer remains; lightly polish a tiny spot and see if the rag gets black.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 04:13 pm
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Michael Rathberger
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George Durbin wrote: Hi Steve!
Line up 5 of those r&m's and I will show you 5 different finishes! I have owned 3 and they were all different... It is simple why your finish is so nice, it is because it was maintained! Someone took care of it... Is that so hard to believe? How do we not account for Mrs. Smith just took care of it and polished it occasionally?
Geo...


I'm not sure "care" had as much to do with it as exposure. Sunlight, damp, cold, heat, etc.

Just a tip George, if you want to always be right, write in big bold letters...

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 05:06 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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I appreciate *The Kim's* use of 4 point for those of us who don't always have their reading glasses handy.

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 05:32 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Michael!I just type at the #2 size... No one knows what happened to these fans unless there is the ol provenance telling us. You have seen cars with the paint worn through from cleaning them too much? Same with fans. Then you add the enviorments to it and it's like a box of chocolots! I think you are right about enviorments probably plays more into patina!!

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 05:36 pm by George Durbin

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 Posted: Sun Jul 20th, 2014 02:27 am
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Tom Morel
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Speaking of R&Ms George, I think some have a different finish because I find it likely that they used a different finsh on the brass. In my opinion, the earlier fans such as the 1404s used more of a gilt finish like some of the GEs. The later models like the 2610 had polished  brass that seemed to generally hold up better than other manufacturers'. I prefer clean patina myself, it makes the fan individual and unique, not the same old grind of polish that makes the fans look alike. I own almost exclusively nice original fans and have found that that category is shrinking. Perhaps those will be worth more in time? It's hard to say.

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