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| Patina? | Rating: 
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 08:24 pm |
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1st Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member 
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Patina is something I still do not understand and is a funny thing when talked about on this forum or any other forum when dealing with antiques. My example of the confusing nature of patina goes like this... Lets say 2 pancakes are purchased in 1900 and are the same model number and consecutive serial numbers. One goes to a home that has a meticulous home owner and the other goes to a home owner that thinks oil only goes into a skillet or a fry-daddy!... One is maintained and cleaned so the brass is not dull and paint is nice. While the other is run till it dies and then moved out to the barn in a hay loft. 114 years later they manage to wind up at the same sale down the street. Do you know what I am getting at here? Sure the clean well maintained fan sells for quite a bit more. But I buy the dirty one. Does the first fan that shines like the day it left the factory have patina? The dirty fan that I clean to make it as good as the first well maintained fan now worth less? There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really? The piece identicle to it was kept clean and maintained over the years is worth less? Removing patina? What does that mean? A pancake bought in 1900 but restored in 1920 is worth less that one not restored? Patina is dirt, lack of oil,hardened grease, bad bearings, chiped paint. How is that desireable when it comes to a fan? A maintained fan does not have it, even if it is 114 years old... JMHO... geo...         Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 09:23 pm by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 09:37 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member 
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"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" Yes, really. Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece. Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 09:38 pm by Tom Dreesen |
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 10:01 pm |
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3rd Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture... geo...
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:09 pm |
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4th Post |
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Steven P Dempsey Guest 
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How about these? Less original fans every day as more get "restored" or turned into lamps, etc. Now, a rusty boat anchor with no original paint left, that's a different nut. Attached Image (viewed 1678 times):
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:15 pm |
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5th Post |
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Stephen Davis Guest 
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I'm not a big fan of patina. The last time I was at Allerton Park, I was tempted to get my rechargeable drill with a buffing wheel and polish up The Sun Singer. It's all green... like the Statue of Liberty. Attached Image (viewed 1612 times):
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:19 pm |
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6th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Turning old fans into lamps? Not me... not my cup o tea! Both the fans you show in yur pics would be worth more restored... The key to fan pricing is 1st. does it run, are the parts there or complete, we all talk about % of paint left... I can think of an exception. A 1900 cake still in its original box pulled out of an old hardware somewhere vs. A restored cake by one of our masters? Which is worth more? Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 11:20 pm by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:26 pm |
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7th Post |
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Thomas Peters AFCA Member
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Easy enough answer to that, George. You already know it. To each individual there will be a different answer. Your property, your choice. Simple enough?
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:31 pm |
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8th Post |
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Michael Rathberger Guest 
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George Durbin wrote: I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture... I have both restored and unrestored. I don't think cleaning a fan lessens the value much unless you butcher it somehow, Jeter does a great job on paint for instance, it does not hurt the value. Polishing the brass is another story and kind of where I'm on the fence in terms of it hurting or helping the value. I have far more stuff just like I found than I do restored and I think it displays fine. It's really a taste discussion, I like the way the way they look with some age, and there's a few pieces I have where a restoration would be at best a scratch to value, so it get's right back to taste preference. A fan that is trashed out like you describe is not patina though. My R&M 1176 needs a restoration and will probably get one, it's pretty rough. My 5110 needs nothing, and will get that as well.
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:45 pm |
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9th Post |
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Steve Stephens Guest 
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Patina, or beausage?? There is a difference and maybe fans lend themselves to acquiring beausage over time mores than patina. Patina: (one definition that can be applied to old fans) A surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use. Beausage: A coined term that I read about on the link below a number of years ago. I think this term better describes our old fans when they have not become all rusted, oily and junked out. http://metacool.typepad.com/metacool/2005/05/beausage.html I remember an Antiques roadshow where a woman had brought in a Dirk van Erp copper lamp for appraisal. The final verdict was delivered in two parts: 1. The lamp was worth about $40,000. 2. Had the owner not polished the lamp it would have been worth around $70,000. The patina had been removed leaving the lamp worth far less than if it had been left alone. In the world of collector cars I have been seeing a lot of "barn finds" with the dust still on the cars, interiors showing much wear or deterioration, and other problems which will probably have to be restored or conserved. Some of these cars including Ferraris, Aston Martins, etc. have been selling at auction for close to and, in some cases, for a little more than a well restored car of the same type. Originality is hot now in the collector vehicle world. But we collect fans so what about patina and beausage on fans? I think a lot comes down to personal opinion and how one desires their fans to look. I have no restored fans in my 190 fan collection and only about 10 with polished brass, maybe fewer. But that's how I happen to like fans and most of the old machinery and metal that appeals to me. I think this goes back to when I was maybe 5 years ago although I don't know why. I've always liked or preferred unrestored old things. I think most of us would prefer an excellent original that had been been well kept for all its life and might appear close to being new. Pieces like that are rarely encountered but most old fans will have various degrees of patina or dirt and corrosion. I think the choice of a new looking old fan, restored or cleaned and polished, or an old 'original' fan with most of the patina conserved is a choice that the owner has to make. Which is worth more, restored or conserved or a totally original as found fan? A well restored fan will often sell for significantly more than an unrestored one in very good original condition but there is also the cost of that restoration to figure into the value. I'm with the collectors who love the look of an old fan that makes it LOOK old and not shiny and new. I also have found that I don't care for the totally cleaned AND polished original old finishes. Cleaned for me is good but rubbed out japan accentuates the nicks and flaws of the original old paint. My Tesla came to me in excellent original condition but with a somewhat dull finish. I did only minor cleaning then gave the fan a coat of Renaissance Wax to protect the finish. The result is not over shiny as it could be made to look but it pleases me and looks old and with "beausage". Below is the fan before I did some cleaning and waxed it. It remains "not too shiny" and as I like it. The brown zip cord, by the way, is not my taste; I just haven't gotten around to putting on a decent power cord. Attached Image (viewed 1603 times): Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 01:59 am by Steve Stephens |
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:46 pm |
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10th Post |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member 
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" I remember seeing an Antiques Roadshow segment, years ago, in which an old lady was doing her "show and tell." She had found a long-ago stowed away Dick Van Erp hammered copper lamp with a mica shade in her attic. She had Brasso'ed the copper to a beautiful shine, just for the show! When the appraiser said it was worth $15K, she smiled with a sh**-eating grin. The appraiser later explained, if she had not buffed the patina off the lamp, it's worth would have been $60K. Her jaw bone made a loud thud as it hit the floor. Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 11:49 pm by Jim Kovar |
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| Posted: Wed May 14th, 2014 11:47 pm |
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11th Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" No, not really. Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range. Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 12:01 am |
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12th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Thomas Peters wrote: Easy enough answer to that, George. You already know it. You are almost spot on! Geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 12:12 am |
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13th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... Geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:09 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 12:23 am |
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14th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" I saw that episode. My wife thinks they are man cave only... I thought it was beautiful! Neat and tasty too! Kinda like any art. If Van gogh had to make a living off me, he would have been broker than he was!  Geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:14 am |
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15th Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" That's the problem Geo. No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found. Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for. The onus is on you. You find 2 5K plus fans to compare. Everyone who collects in this range already knows.
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:28 am |
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16th Post |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Jim Kovar wrote:She had found a long-ago stowed away Dick Van Erp hammered copper lamp with a mica shade in her attic. Dick Van Erp... the Arts and Crafts Movement at it's absolute best.  Attached Image (viewed 1629 times):
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:31 am |
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17th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:That's the problem Geo. My proof is above! I have done the research... Now if any of the members that buy $5k plus fans want to chime in here, I am listening... geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:06 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:36 am |
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18th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Patina, or beausage?? now thats a purty fan... geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:43 am |
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19th Post |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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George, why is this discussion in the BST forum? Are you going to try to sell bags of patina again?
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:51 am |
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20th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" Those experts on the road show? they argue back and forth what an item is worth and those experts DO NOT agree! So many of these items do find their way to well advertised sales, and do not come close to what the road show peeps say... On the other hand some items will sell for many times what "the experts" say... Indian and chinese items are really hot right now and are commanding out of this world prices! Now items that were hot just a few years ago are worth far less... Same item? Why?i have an answer... I will save for later... geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:53 am |
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21st Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: George, why is this discussion in the BST forum? Yup! trying to get a guage on current prices and what the market will bear... geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 01:57 am |
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22nd Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" I don't see any comparison. What research? Ask Stefan Osdene if he is going to polish his fans. Should be a good laugh for Stefan. Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 02:05 am by Tom Dreesen |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 02:16 am |
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23rd Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:I don't see any comparison. What research? For three years I have been comparing fans of the same model. It is true in every case. I do not know what Stefan thinks... I on the other hand have to think if i own a tri-pod or another "rare" fan I still say it doesnt change a thing. If it is properly restored it will be worth more... not talking about furniture, just fans... geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:07 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 02:24 am |
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24th Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" Sorry Geo, you are simply wrong. There is no question. The premium is not as great as with other collectibles, but it is there.
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 02:54 am |
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25th Post |
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Ron Jeter Guest 
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George: I have seen fans have been cleaned and polished sell more money than "as found" -- I have also have seen it go the other way. Any fan that I have has had the paint cleaned and waxed to preserve the paint for the next collector/owner and so own. Enclosed is a photo of quart jar of Patina scraped from an Emerson Tripod Blade. You Emerson collectors may purchase the patina (jar included) for $29.95. See photo of Jar and the Emerson TriPod Blade - took a long time to get these blades back to factory condition. Attached Image (viewed 1533 times):
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 02:54 am |
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26th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:Sorry Geo, you are simply wrong. Hi Tom! Now just a second here! This is settled science just like global warming. You need to move on! what are you? A lawyer or something?? After all, After I have chimed in on an issue that is all that is left to be said about an issue...geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:57 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 02:58 am |
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27th Post |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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George here is the blade that I cleaned to get the Patina in the Jar. The fan ran better with the Patina gone, no longer out of balance. Attached Image (viewed 1525 times):
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:06 am |
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28th Post |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:George Durbin wrote:Tom Dreesen wrote:"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?" It sure is Geo. Just like global warming is a scientific fact. If you doubt that, then you need to go back to 3rd grade Science class.
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:08 am |
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29th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Ron Jeter wrote: George here is the blade that I cleaned to get the Patina in the Jar. The fan ran better with the Patina gone, no longer out of balance. hahahah! Hi Ron! Dont put that jar of patina on the forum, you will get more $$ if you put it on e-pay! geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:42 am |
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30th Post |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Quoting when posting. You can delete irrelevant posts when using the "quote' function. Just highlight and delete any part(s) of the quoted material that does not pertain to your post. Thanks, it makes reading the forum easier than when you include two or more previous post material in the quote. I see 10 posts quoted in one post above. There is no need for that. Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:43 am by Steve Stephens |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:44 am |
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31st Post |
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Nicholas Denney Guest 
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Geo.. you're being pretty silly, even for you. This discussion hasn't really hit on the whole of the issue either. It's not just the pricy and rare fans that are more worthy unrestored, in reasonable condition. The fans of which there are no "good" original examples are going to be worth more untouched, or nearly untouched. There are plenty of near-mint Vortalexes, 29646s and Eskimos out there... no doubt about that. The GE "Furniture Fan", on the other hand, is the opposite. It is a fragile creation with hand-painted details, and few have survived in what most would consider a generally presentable condition. None have survived like the example below... and I can assure you that completely ripping this one apart and redoing it would exponentially reduce its value. The fan drum is cast aluminum with hand-painted woodgrain. The scrolled yoke arm is real wood.  Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:46 am by Nicholas Denney |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:48 am |
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32nd Post |
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Nicholas Denney Guest
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And guess what, Geo... it's mine. Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:48 am by Nicholas Denney |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:48 am |
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33rd Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Quoting when posting. Thnx Steve! Let me see if I can clean that up... I didnt know how to do that! Ok, I got some of it cleaned up! I cannot edit what Tom has posted, Tom will need to do that... It does get tedious to sort down through that! I will correct in the future!! thnx again! geo... PS... I have been posting a lot the last few days. I had chemo again and some minor complications requiring feet up and on my back! Lot of time to think and to post on here... I try to keep it light and sorta on target. Sorry if I offend, and it would be a lonely place here with out me... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:22 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:49 am |
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34th Post |
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Nicholas Denney Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 03:53 am |
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35th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Nicholas Denney wrote: And guess what, Geo... it's mine. Hi Nick! Very Nice! Some day I may have one of those if I am lucky! I think Kim Frank has restored one of those. I Likem!! Do they blow a good amount of air? I have not seen one run... geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:55 am by George Durbin |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 04:26 am |
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36th Post |
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William Dunlap AFCA Member 
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George, What's to understand? Either you have the type of personality that appreciates the original untouched state of an object or you don't. I don't think this is a learned trait. I had a friend with a 1951 Jaguar sedan that was nearly 100% original. Hard to find in that condition. It had the paint so thin from repeated waxings you could see the primer underneath. In my opinion, it had NO patina whatsoever on it. Rather it had the signs of an owner who cared about it as more than just a car and lavished love and attention on it for it's entire life. Something like this needs to find another owner with the same love of the car when it gets passed on. Can you imagine the sacrilege of someone taking something like that and chopping the roof and lowering it, dropping a Chevvy V8 in in it with spoolies?Yeesh....Something like that applies to fans although some get carried away with it.For me, I'm simply not interested in perfectly unrestored original anything and I won't own anything I think is too historically important that I shouldn't restore it.Restoring is what I do, not collecting. For me it's about the work and the finished product.I will respect the historically significant pieces and maybe pass them on to Steve or someone who appreciates them more appropriately. Patina is a frequently mis-used word, but for me it's what happens when you're too busy to take care of something properly. Cheers,Bill I just wanted to add that most of the objects we collect will not last forever, and in fact if they are NOT restored will likely just patina away into uselessness. So just something to think about. Those who are preserving a piece for posterity maybe only just delaying the eventual restoration.B. Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:31 am by William Dunlap |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 05:00 am |
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37th Post |
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David Hoatson Guest 
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You know , that furniture fan would be a lot nicer if it had the original power cord.
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 05:02 am |
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38th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi William! Good post! Most early fans as most of you know have rough cast iron finishes where the builders mostly ground off the imperfections and had minimal surface prep pre-paint. This left the iron pretty rough. So to adjust for the rough finish the thick Japan paint was used to clear up and smooth out the rough molding. And even with the Japanning some were still pretty rough! This saved time and $$... When I see a fan restored, I like the paint job to be nice, but I still like to see the mold imperfections and rough surface like it came from the factory. This is why a good paint application with Rustoleum can put out a very fine looking fan! So if you look closely and see the mold marks under the paint, that is fine for me! We have restorers who can lay on paint that will blind you and you need sunglasses to look at them! That's good too! My father in law painted cars with a brush! You would not see a brush mark when he was finished... He always had plenty of work painting old cars... he always told me it was all in the prep! geo...
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 05:10 am |
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39th Post |
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David Hoatson Guest
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I don't like rust on a fan. Here is a spray can Rustoleum lacquer. Just imperfect enough to look like Japan. You are correct - japanning (at least the Emerson) was slopped on thick enough to fill casting pits and grind marks. Plus, I didn't mess with polishing the blades. The patina is more intriguing. Attached Image (viewed 1474 times): Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:11 am by David Hoatson |
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| Posted: Thu May 15th, 2014 05:28 am |
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40th Post |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi David! I like that look... I dont want to see runs in the paint. Blades are good too! geo... PS... I think the electrolisis method for removing paint and rust, enhances the look of the paint... If your going for the rougher look... geo... Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:31 am by George Durbin |
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