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George Durbin
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Patina is something I still do not understand and is a funny thing when talked about on this forum or any other forum when dealing with antiques. My example of the confusing nature of patina goes like this...
Lets say 2 pancakes are purchased in 1900 and are the same model number and consecutive serial numbers. One goes to a home that has a meticulous home owner and the other goes to a home owner that thinks oil only goes into a skillet or a fry-daddy!... One is maintained and cleaned so the brass is not dull and paint is nice. While the other is run till it dies and then moved out to the barn in a hay loft. 114 years later they manage to wind up at the same sale down the street. Do you know what I am getting at here? Sure the clean well maintained fan sells for quite a bit more. But I buy the dirty one. Does the first fan that shines like the day it left the factory have patina? The dirty fan that I clean to make it as good as the first well maintained fan now worth less? There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really? The piece identicle to it was kept clean and maintained over the years is worth less? Removing patina? What does that mean? A pancake bought in 1900 but restored in 1920 is worth less that one not restored? Patina is dirt, lack of oil,hardened grease, bad bearings, chiped paint. How is that desireable when it comes to a fan? A maintained fan does not have it, even if it is 114 years old...  JMHO...
geo...:?:D:P:X:cool::shock::pacifier::wondering:

Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 10:23 pm by George Durbin

Tom Dreesen
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"There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.

Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2014 10:38 pm by Tom Dreesen

George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

Steven P Dempsey
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How about these?
Less original fans every day as more get "restored" or turned into lamps, etc.
Now, a rusty boat anchor with no original paint left, that's a different nut.

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Stephen Davis
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I'm not a big fan of patina.  The last time I was at Allerton Park, I was tempted to get my rechargeable drill with a buffing wheel and polish up The Sun Singer.  It's all green... like the Statue of Liberty. 

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George Durbin
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Turning old fans into lamps? Not me... not my cup o tea! Both the fans you show in yur pics would be worth more restored... The key to fan pricing is 1st. does it run, are the parts there or complete, we all talk about % of paint left... I can think of an exception. A 1900 cake still in its original box pulled out of an old hardware somewhere vs. A restored cake by one of our masters? Which is worth more? 

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 12:20 am by George Durbin

Thomas Peters
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Easy enough answer to that, George. You already know it.

To each individual there will be a different answer.

Your property, your choice.

Simple enough?

Michael Rathberger
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George Durbin wrote: I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...


I have both restored and unrestored. I don't think cleaning a fan lessens the value much unless you butcher it somehow, Jeter does a great job on paint for instance, it does not hurt the value. Polishing the brass is another story and kind of where I'm on the fence in terms of it hurting or helping the value.

I have far more stuff just like I found than I do restored and I think it displays fine. It's really a taste discussion, I like the way the way they look with some age, and there's a few pieces I have where a restoration would be at best a scratch to value, so it get's right back to taste preference.

A fan that is trashed out like you describe is not patina though. My R&M 1176 needs a restoration and will probably get one, it's pretty rough. My 5110 needs nothing, and will get that as well.

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Patina, or beausage??

There is a difference and maybe fans lend themselves to acquiring beausage over time mores than patina.

Patina: (one definition that can be applied to old fans) A surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use.

Beausage:  A coined term that I read about on the link below a number of years ago.  I think this term better describes our old fans when they have not become all rusted, oily and junked out.
http://metacool.typepad.com/metacool/2005/05/beausage.html

I remember an Antiques roadshow where a woman had brought in a Dirk van Erp copper lamp for appraisal.  The final verdict was delivered in two parts:  1.  The lamp was worth about $40,000.  2.  Had the owner not polished the lamp it would have been worth around $70,000.  The patina had been removed leaving the lamp worth far less than if it had been left alone.

In the world of collector cars I have been seeing a lot of "barn finds" with the dust still on the cars, interiors showing much wear or deterioration, and other problems which will probably have to be restored or conserved.  Some of these cars including Ferraris, Aston Martins, etc. have been selling at auction for close to and, in some cases, for a little more than a well restored car of the same type.  Originality is hot now in the collector vehicle world.  

But we collect fans so what about patina and beausage on fans?  I think a lot comes down to personal opinion and how one desires their fans to look.  I have no restored fans in my 190 fan collection and only about 10 with polished brass, maybe fewer.  But that's how I happen to like fans and most of the old machinery and metal that appeals to me.  I think this goes back to when I was maybe 5 years ago although I don't know why.   I've always liked or preferred unrestored old things.

I think most of us would prefer an excellent original that had been been well kept for all its life and might appear close to being new.  Pieces like that are rarely encountered but most old fans will have various degrees of patina or dirt and corrosion.  I think the choice of a new looking old fan, restored or cleaned and polished, or an old 'original' fan with most of the patina conserved is a choice that the owner has to make. 


Which is worth more, restored or conserved or a totally original as found fan?  A well restored fan will often sell for significantly more than an unrestored one in very good original condition but there is also the cost of that restoration to figure into the value.  I'm with the collectors who love the look of an old fan that makes it LOOK old and not shiny and new.  I also have found that I don't care for the totally cleaned AND polished original old finishes.  Cleaned for me is good but rubbed out japan accentuates the nicks and flaws of the original old paint.  My Tesla came to me in excellent original condition but with a somewhat dull finish.  I did only minor cleaning then gave the fan a coat of Renaissance Wax to protect the finish.  The result is not over shiny as it could be made to look but it pleases me and looks old and with "beausage".  Below is the fan before I did some cleaning and waxed it.  It remains "not too shiny" and as I like it.

The brown zip cord, by the way, is not my taste; I just haven't gotten around to putting on a decent power cord.  

Attached Image (viewed 1661 times):

left side.JPG

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 02:59 am by Steve Stephens

Jim Kovar
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.

I remember seeing an Antiques Roadshow segment, years ago,
in which an old lady was doing her "show and tell."

She had found a long-ago stowed away Dick Van Erp hammered
copper lamp with a mica shade in her attic.  She had Brasso'ed
the copper to a beautiful shine, just for the show!


When the appraiser said it was worth $15K, she smiled with a
sh**-eating grin. The appraiser later explained, if she had not
buffed the patina off the lamp, it's worth would have been $60K.

Her jaw bone made a loud thud as it hit the floor.

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 12:49 am by Jim Kovar

Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.

George Durbin
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Thomas Peters wrote: Easy enough answer to that, George. You already know it.

To each individual there will be a different answer.

Your property, your choice.

Simple enough?

You are almost spot on!
Geo...

George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.


I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... 
Geo...

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:09 am by George Durbin

George Durbin
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Jim Kovar wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.

I remember seeing an Antiques Roadshow segment, years ago,
in which an old lady was doing her "show and tell."

She had found a long-ago stowed away Dick Van Erp hammered
copper lamp with a mica shade in her attic.  She had Brasso'ed
the copper to a beautiful shine, just for the show!


When the appraiser said it was worth $15K, she smiled with a
sh**-eating grin. The appraiser later explained, if she had not
buffed the patina off the lamp, it's worth would have been $60K.

Her jaw bone made a loud thud as it hit the floor.

I saw that episode. My wife thinks they are man cave only... I thought it was beautiful! Neat and tasty too! Kinda like any art. If Van gogh had to make a living off me, he would have been broker than he was!:hammer:
Geo...

Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.


I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... 
Geo...


That's the problem Geo.

No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found.

Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for.

The onus is on you.  You find 2 5K plus fans to compare.  Everyone who collects in this range already knows.

Jim Kovar
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George Durbin wrote: Jim Kovar wrote: She had found a long-ago stowed away Dick Van Erp hammered copper lamp with a mica shade in her attic.
I saw that episode. My wife thinks they are man cave only... I thought it was beautiful! Neat and tasty too! Kinda like any art. If Van gogh had to make a living off me, he would have been broker than he was!:hammer:
Geo...

Dick Van Erp...

the Arts and Crafts Movement
at it's absolute best.  :up:

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George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:
That's the problem Geo.

No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found.

Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for.

The onus is on you.  You find 2 5K plus fans to compare.  Everyone who collects in this range already knows.


My proof is above! I have done the research... Now if any of the members that buy $5k plus fans want to chime in here, I am listening...
geo...
 

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:06 am by George Durbin

George Durbin
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Steve Stephens wrote: Patina, or beausage??

There is a difference and maybe fans lend themselves to acquiring beausage over time mores than patina.

Patina: (one definition that can be applied to old fans) A surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use.

Beausage:  A coined term that I read about on the link below a number of years ago.  I think this term better describes our old fans when they have not become all rusted, oily and junked out.
http://metacool.typepad.com/metacool/2005/05/beausage.html

I remember an Antiques roadshow where a woman had brought in a Dirk van Erp copper lamp for appraisal.  The final verdict was delivered in two parts:  1.  The lamp was worth about $40,000.  2.  Had the owner not polished the lamp it would have been worth around $70,000.  The patina had been removed leaving the lamp worth far less than if it had been left alone.

In the world of collector cars I have been seeing a lot of "barn finds" with the dust still on the cars, interiors showing much wear or deterioration, and other problems which will probably have to be restored or conserved.  Some of these cars including Ferraris, Aston Martins, etc. have been selling at auction for close to and, in some cases, for a little more than a well restored car of the same type.  Originality is hot now in the collector vehicle world.  

But we collect fans so what about patina and beausage on fans?  I think a lot comes down to personal opinion and how one desires their fans to look.  I have no restored fans in my 190 fan collection and only about 10 with polished brass, maybe fewer.  But that's how I happen to like fans and most of the old machinery and metal that appeals to me.  I think this goes back to when I was maybe 5 years ago although I don't know why.   I've always liked or preferred unrestored old things.

I think most of us would prefer an excellent original that had been been well kept for all its life and might appear close to being new.  Pieces like that are rarely encountered but most old fans will have various degrees of patina or dirt and corrosion.  I think the choice of a new looking old fan, restored or cleaned and polished, or an old 'original' fan with most of the patina conserved is a choice that the owner has to make. 


Which is worth more, restored or conserved or a totally original as found fan?  A well restored fan will often sell for significantly more than an unrestored one in very good original condition but there is also the cost of that restoration to figure into the value.  I'm with the collectors who love the look of an old fan that makes it LOOK old and not shiny and new.  I also have found that I don't care for the totally cleaned AND polished original old finishes.  Cleaned for me is good but rubbed out japan accentuates the nicks and flaws of the original old paint.  My Tesla came to me in excellent original condition but with a somewhat dull finish.  I did only minor cleaning then gave the fan a coat of Renaissance Wax to protect the finish.  The result is not over shiny as it could be made to look but it pleases me and looks old and with "beausage".  Below is the fan before I did some cleaning and waxed it.  It remains "not too shiny" and as I like it.


now thats a purty fan...
geo...

Jim Kovar
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George, why is this discussion in the BST forum?

Are you going to try to sell bags of patina again?  :wondering:

George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


Those experts on the road show? they argue back and forth what an item is worth and those experts DO NOT agree! So many of these items do find their way to well advertised sales, and do not come close to what the road show peeps say... On the other hand some items will sell for many times what "the experts" say... Indian and chinese items are really hot right now and are commanding out of this world prices! Now items that were hot just a few years ago are worth far less... Same item? Why?i have an answer... I will save for later...
geo...:D:D:D

George Durbin
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Jim Kovar wrote: George, why is this discussion in the BST forum?

Are you going to try to sell bags of patina again?  :wondering:


Yup! trying to get a guage on current prices and what the market will bear...
geo...:D:D

Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.


I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... 
Geo...


That's the problem Geo.

No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found.

Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for.

The onus is on you.  You find 2 5K plus fans to compare.  Everyone who collects in this range already knows.


My proof is above! I have done the research... Now if any of the members that buy $5k plus fans want to chime in here, I am listening...
geo...
 

I don't see any comparison.  What research?

Ask Stefan Osdene if he is going to polish his fans.

Should be a good laugh for Stefan.

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 03:05 am by Tom Dreesen

George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:
I don't see any comparison.  What research?

Ask Stefan Osborne if he is going to polish his fans.

Should be a good laugh for Stefan.


For three years I have been comparing fans of the same model. It is true in every case. I do not know what Stefan thinks... I on the other hand have to think if i own a tri-pod or another "rare" fan I still say it doesnt change a thing. If it is properly restored it will be worth more... not talking about furniture, just fans...
geo...

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:07 am by George Durbin

Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.


I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... 
Geo...


That's the problem Geo.

No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found.

Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for.

The onus is on you.  You find 2 5K plus fans to compare.  Everyone who collects in this range already knows.


My proof is above! I have done the research... Now if any of the members that buy $5k plus fans want to chime in here, I am listening...
geo...
 

I don't see any comparison.  What research?

Ask Stefan Osborne if he is going to polish his fans.

Should be a good laugh for Stefan.


For three years I have been comparing fans of the same model. It is true in every case. I do not know what Stefan thinks... I on the other hand have to think if i own a tri-pod or another "rare" fan I still say it doesnt change a thing. If it is properly restored it will be worth more... not talking about furniture, just fans...
geo...

Sorry Geo, you are simply wrong.

There is no question.

The premium is not as great as with other collectibles, but it is there.

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George: I have seen fans have been cleaned and polished sell more money than "as found" -- I have also have seen it go the other way. Any fan that I have has had the paint cleaned and waxed to preserve the paint for the next collector/owner and so own. Enclosed is a photo of quart jar of Patina scraped from an Emerson Tripod Blade. You Emerson collectors may purchase the patina (jar included) for $29.95.  See photo of Jar and the Emerson TriPod Blade - took a long time to get these blades back to factory condition.

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George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:
Sorry Geo, you are simply wrong.

There is no question.

The premium is not as great as with other collectibles, but it is there.


Hi Tom!
Now just a second here! This is settled science just like global warming. You need to move on!  what are you? A lawyer or something??:D After all, After I have chimed in on an issue that is all that is left to be said about an issue...:D
geo...:P

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:57 am by George Durbin

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George here is the blade that I cleaned to get the Patina in the Jar. The fan ran better with the Patina gone, no longer out of balance.

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DSCN1911.JPG

Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: "There are pieces of furniture on antiques road show the experts claim it is worth more money because of the water stains, scratches and dents... Really?"

Yes, really.

Twice to 3X more in most cases compared to a refinished piece.


I think fans are an exception. Any top shelf resto fan is commanding way more than an unfinished one. I know of no exceptions. Can you site any? You put any 2 identical together that run properly, and the restored one is gonna get more $$... Not so in furniture...
geo...

No, not really.

Now we have to talk about rare fans in the 5K plus price range.

Common fans as well as furniture can gain value with a restore.


I want to make this clear... This is a conversation! All is well so far! :)Tom! Or anyone else, show me an example where a nicely restored fan is not worth more than an original in any price range... I have not seen one posted here in the 3 years I have been a member of the AFCA... 
Geo...


That's the problem Geo.

No one who knows the value of the 5K plus fans would redo them to make them shine unless they were a basket case when found.

Finding 2 to compare is not something I care to search for.

The onus is on you.  You find 2 5K plus fans to compare.  Everyone who collects in this range already knows.


My proof is above! I have done the research... Now if any of the members that buy $5k plus fans want to chime in here, I am listening...
geo...
 

I don't see any comparison.  What research?

Ask Stefan Osborne if he is going to polish his fans.

Should be a good laugh for Stefan.


For three years I have been comparing fans of the same model. It is true in every case. I do not know what Stefan thinks... I on the other hand have to think if i own a tri-pod or another "rare" fan I still say it doesnt change a thing. If it is properly restored it will be worth more... not talking about furniture, just fans...
geo...

Sorry Geo, you are simply wrong.

There is no question.

The premium is not as great as with other collectibles, but it is there.


Hi Tom!
Now just a second here! This is settled science just like global warming. You need to move on!  what are you? A lawyer or something??:D After all, After I have chimed in on an issue that is all that is left to be said about an issue...:D
geo...:P

It sure is Geo.

Just like global warming is a scientific fact.

If you doubt that, then you need to go back to 3rd grade Science class.

George Durbin
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Ron Jeter wrote: George here is the blade that I cleaned to get the Patina in the Jar. The fan ran better with the Patina gone, no longer out of balance.
hahahah!
Hi Ron!
Dont put that jar of patina on the forum, you will get more $$ if you put it on e-pay!
geo...

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Quoting when posting.  

You can delete irrelevant posts when using the "quote' function.  Just highlight and delete any part(s) of the quoted material that does not pertain to your post.  Thanks, it makes reading the forum easier than when you include two or more previous post material in the quote.  I see 10 posts quoted in one post above.  There is no need for that.

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:43 am by Steve Stephens

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Geo.. you're being pretty silly, even for you.:tease

This discussion hasn't really hit on the whole of the issue either. It's not just the pricy and rare fans that are more worthy unrestored, in reasonable condition. The fans of which there are no "good" original examples are going to be worth more untouched, or nearly untouched. There are plenty of near-mint Vortalexes, 29646s and Eskimos out there... no doubt about that.


The GE "Furniture Fan", on the other hand, is the opposite. It is a fragile creation with hand-painted details, and few have survived in what most would consider a generally presentable condition. None have survived like the example below... and I can assure you that completely ripping this one apart and redoing it would exponentially reduce its value.


The fan drum is cast aluminum with hand-painted woodgrain. The scrolled yoke arm is real wood. 

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:46 am by Nicholas Denney

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And guess what, Geo... it's mine.

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:48 am by Nicholas Denney

George Durbin
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Steve Stephens wrote: Quoting when posting.  

You can delete irrelevant posts when using the "quote' function.  Just highlight and delete any part(s) of the quoted material that does not pertain to your post.  Thanks, it makes reading the forum easier than when you include two or more previous post material in the quote.  I see 10 posts quoted in one post above.  There is no need for that.


Thnx Steve! Let me see if I can clean that up... I didnt know how to do that! Ok, I got some of it cleaned up! I cannot edit what Tom has posted, Tom will need to do that... It does get tedious to sort down through that! I will correct in the future!! thnx again!
geo...
PS... I have been posting a lot the last few days. I had chemo again and some minor complications requiring feet up and on my back! Lot of time to think and to post on here... I try to keep it light and sorta on target. Sorry if I offend, and it would be a lonely place here with out me...:D:D:D:D

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:22 am by George Durbin

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Nicholas Denney wrote: And guess what, Geo... it's mine.


Hi Nick!
Very Nice!
Some day I may have one of those if I am lucky!
I think Kim Frank has restored one of those.
I Likem!! Do they blow a good amount of air? I have not seen one run...
geo...

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 04:55 am by George Durbin

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George,
What's to understand? Either you have the type of personality that appreciates the original untouched state of an object or you don't. I don't think this is a learned trait.
I had a friend with a 1951 Jaguar sedan that was nearly 100% original. Hard to find in that condition. It had the paint so thin from repeated waxings you could see the primer underneath. In my opinion, it had NO patina whatsoever on it. Rather it had the signs of an owner who cared about it as more than just a car and lavished love and attention on it for it's entire life. Something like this needs to find another owner with the same love of the car when it gets passed on. Can you imagine the sacrilege of someone taking something like that and chopping the roof and lowering it, dropping a Chevvy V8 in in it with spoolies?Yeesh....Something like that applies to fans although some get carried away with it.For me, I'm simply not interested in perfectly unrestored original anything and I won't own anything I think is too historically important that I shouldn't restore it.Restoring is what I do, not collecting. For me it's about the work and the finished product.I will respect the historically significant pieces and maybe pass them on to Steve or someone who appreciates them more appropriately.
Patina is a frequently mis-used word, but for me it's what happens when you're too busy to take care of something properly.
Cheers,Bill

I just wanted to add that most of the objects we collect will not last forever, and in fact if they are NOT restored will likely just patina away into uselessness. So just something to think about. Those who are preserving a piece for posterity maybe only just delaying the eventual restoration.B.

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 05:31 am by William Dunlap

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You know , that furniture fan would be a lot nicer if it had the original power cord. :P

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Hi William!
Good post! Most early fans as most of you know have rough cast iron finishes where the builders mostly ground off the imperfections and had minimal surface prep pre-paint. This  left the iron pretty rough. So to adjust for the rough finish the thick Japan paint was used to clear up and smooth out the rough molding. And even with the Japanning some were still pretty rough! This saved time and $$... When I see a fan restored, I like the paint job to be nice, but I still like to see the mold imperfections and rough surface like it came from the factory. This is why a good paint application with Rustoleum can put out a very fine looking fan! So if you look closely and see the mold marks under the paint, that is fine for me! We have restorers who can lay on paint that will blind you and you need sunglasses to look at them! That's good too! My father in law painted cars with a brush! You would not see a brush mark when he was finished... He always had plenty of work painting old cars... he always told me it was all in the prep!
geo...

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I don't like rust on a fan. Here is a spray can Rustoleum lacquer. Just imperfect enough to look like Japan. You are correct - japanning (at least the Emerson) was slopped on thick enough to fill casting pits and grind marks. Plus, I didn't mess with polishing the blades. The patina is more intriguing. 

Attached Image (viewed 1526 times):

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Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 06:11 am by David Hoatson

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Hi David!
I like that look... I dont want to see runs in the paint. Blades are good too!
geo...
PS... I think the electrolisis method for removing paint and rust, enhances the look of the paint... If your going for the rougher look...
geo...

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 06:31 am by George Durbin

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All that matters to me is that the fans I collect will last another 100 years. If they're too far gone to get that far, they get restored. If not, I enjoy them as-is.


Whether or not a fan is worth more after having been restored depends entirely on what you paid for it in the first place. There are plenty of $5k+ fans out there that are worth less unless restored.


I would agree that the more rare and valuable the fan, the higher the relative value if it's mostly original.


One interesting thing is brass tarnishes relatively quickly so many of the fans that we all consider beautiful "originals" may very well have been restored 50 years ago. No way to know ;) I wonder how many fans will be around 100 years from now and what people will think of the restored ones after another 100 years of patina upon that restoration?

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Steve Stephens wrote: Quoting when posting.  

You can delete irrelevant posts when using the "quote' function.  Just highlight and delete any part(s) of the quoted material that does not pertain to your post.  Thanks, it makes reading the forum easier than when you include two or more previous post material in the quote.  I see 10 posts quoted in one post above.  There is no need for that.

Steve, I've heard that if there's enough nested
quotes within quotes, to the point where there's
no more room for the innermost quote, the whole
thread will self-destruct.  :wondering:


Maybe Larry could verify this?  :wondering:

Attached Image (viewed 975 times):

IMG_20140514_232313.JPG

Last edited on Thu May 15th, 2014 09:37 am by Jim Kovar

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Sorry guys I didn't know how to stop the nesting... I think I do now...

Geo...

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Tim Marks wrote: All that matters to me is that the fans I collect will last another 100 years. If they're too far gone to get that far, they get restored. If not, I enjoy them as-is.


Whether or not a fan is worth more after having been restored depends entirely on what you paid for it in the first place. There are plenty of $5k+ fans out there that are worth less unless restored.


I would agree that the more rare and valuable the fan, the higher the relative value if it's mostly original.


One interesting thing is brass tarnishes relatively quickly so many of the fans that we all consider beautiful "originals" may very well have been restored 50 years ago. No way to know ;) I wonder how many fans will be around 100 years from now and what people will think of the restored ones after another 100 years of patina upon that restoration?

An item's worth on the open market is not predicated on what one paid, in any condition.

Restoration, like patina, has many shades.

Rust is not patina.

Dirt is not patina.

Jeterization is more preservation than restoration.

Many items were patinated at the time of manufacture (like the lamps mentioned above).

Replacement of parts that wear out (like wiring, or springs, or bearings) is called maintenance.

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I was at a large auction. My bud and I were standing in front 2 rolls of rusted barb wire about 2 feet across and so loosely wound you could see right through them! I Was chuckling at who might buy that... the auctioneer finally got to them. 2 lady's ran up and the younger one said they were works of art! Bidding started and when it was done they got $40 ea. For them!! I have rolled up miles of that stuff and threw them into ditches! So that was when I found out that I am an artist!! My bud is still laughing at me...:DGeo...

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Tom Dreesen wrote:
An item's worth on the open market is not predicated on what one paid, in any condition.

Restoration, like patina, has many shades.

Rust is not patina.

Dirt is not patina.

Jeterization is more preservation than restoration.

Many items were patinated at the time of manufacture (like the lamps mentioned above).

Replacement of parts that wear out (like wiring, or springs, or bearings) is called maintenance.

Technically rust is patina. It just not a desirable form of patina in our case. 

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Tim Marks wrote:

Technically rust is patina. It just not a desirable form of patina in our case. 

No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

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Tom Dreesen wrote:
No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

You see the world in absolutes. Wiki says otherwise, I'm sure we can both find sources to support whatever opinion we want:

"On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxidescarbonatessulfides, or sulfates formed on the surface during exposure to atmospheric elements (oxygenrain,acid raincarbon dioxidesulfur-bearing compounds), a common example of which is rust which forms on iron or steel when exposed to oxygen. Patina also refers to accumulated changes in surface texture and colour that result from normal use of an object such as a coin or a piece of furniture over time.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

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Tim Marks wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:
No, it is damage.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/lasvegas_200706A35.html

You see the world in absolutes. Wiki says otherwise, I'm sure we can both find sources to support whatever opinion we want:

"On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxidescarbonatessulfides, or sulfates formed on the surface during exposure to atmospheric elements (oxygenrain,acid raincarbon dioxidesulfur-bearing compounds), a common example of which is rust which forms on iron or steel when exposed to oxygen. Patina also refers to accumulated changes in surface texture and colour that result from normal use of an object such as a coin or a piece of furniture over time.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

Wiki?  really?

We are talking about collectibles.

The key word in any definition that applies is *desirable*.

Rust does not stop at a thin coat, it will eat away all of it.

You can leave the rust on your fans, but you are guaranteeing they won't be around in another 100 years.

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What about all these porceline signs peeps are buying with rust on them? No one is scaping off that rusty patina...
And I heard that rustoleum has chemicals in it to stop rust from advancing? And I have heard there is stuff you can get to put on rust besides Rustoleum that will arrest its advance...:wondering::wondering::wondering:geo...

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George Durbin wrote: What about all these porceline signs peeps are buying with rust on them? No one is scaping off that rusty patina...
And I heard that rustoleum has chemicals in it to stop rust from advancing? And I have heard there is stuff you can get to put on rust besides Rustoleum that will arrest its advance...:wondering::wondering::wondering:geo...

Iron plus oxygen in the presence of water (even in the air, ie humidity) equals rust.

Remove access to air and/or water, you stop rust. 

That's why it is painted.


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Hey, no joke, this little girl is named Patina. Don't let her anywhere near your fans. Just saying.


Cheers,
Bill

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heheh! hi Bill!
My daughter in law is about to have her second baby... She has no name for it yet and its a girl!... guess what i will be suggesting in a few minutes!! muhaha!:evil:evil:evil
geo...

Update!

She said something like no way in H*ll. Who have you been talking to? 

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 02:50 am by George Durbin

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Rusty is a fine name. 

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William Dunlap wrote: Hey, no joke, this little girl is named Patina. Don't let her anywhere near your fans. Just saying.


Cheers,
Bill

Shoot, I have authentic patina in a can (says so on the label).


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I would never accuse the one on the left as being a rusty boat anchor.  To me it looks great in either condition IMHO & I'm not arguing either position cause I have both kinds on my shelf.
If you are going to place them behind museum glass, is one thing, if you want to use it for another 100 years, well that's another thing, again, JMHO.

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George Durbin wrote: ...rusted barb wire...    ...I have rolled up miles of that stuff and threw them into ditches!So you're the one!...

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Well that's another way to roll a junk fence up!

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The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

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Tom Dreesen wrote: The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

Errr uhhhh.... No cage or blade? With those items it will command much more! And restored to working condition IT WILL DOUBLE THE $$
And you are right! Its gonna bring a premium!!

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 04:37 am by George Durbin

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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: The HC Moo fan just asked about is a perfect example.


Without seeing it in person, it looks to be an unrestored example.  It will sell at a premium.

Errr uhhhh.... No cage or blade? With those items it will command much more! And restored to working condition IT WILL DOUBLE THE $$
And you are right! Its gonna bring a premium!!


Apples to apples Geo.

A restored motor only compared to this one.

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William Drabble's restored example... worth much more after restore. Another example... How many more ya need?

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 05:20 am by George Durbin

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Restored... It is magnificent....

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 05:21 am by George Durbin

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George Durbin wrote: William Drabble's restored example... worth much more after restore. Another example... How many more ya need?
I would need prices for one. 

What you think and reality may not converge.

Also I would simply point out that the unrestored example was not in the best of condition.

Again, you have to compare apples to apples.

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If restored fans are almost always worth more I would like to say that maybe the buyers of restored fans think that they are getting something MORE and BETTER than they would get in an unrestored fan.  That may be true but a restored fan also gives you a modern finish with no patina or history.  The restored fan will almost always look NEW instead of old.  Some people must prefer a new looking old fan with a new finish.  Maybe they are willing to paymore for the benefits, if there are any, of the restored fan.   I'll go with a fan that LOOKS old, IS old, has a finish and patina that is old and has historic character.  For those who don't understand the desirability of nice unrestored fans I will not try to explain.  Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.

Restored old fan = object de art

Unrestored old fan = object of history

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Steve Stephens wrote: If restored fans are almost always worth more I would like to say that maybe the buyers of restored fans think that they are getting something MORE and BETTER than they would get in an unrestored fan.  That may be true but a restored fan also gives you a modern finish with no patina or history.  The restored fan will almost always look NEW instead of old.  Some people must prefer a new looking old fan with a new finish.  Maybe they are willing to paymore for the benefits, if there are any, of the restored fan.   I'll go with a fan that LOOKS old, IS old, has a finish and patina that is old and has historic character.  For those who don't understand the desirability of nice unrestored fans I will not try to explain.  Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.

Restored old fan = object de art

Unrestored old fan = object of history
I agree. I like both. There are fans that look great as is and need to stay that way and fans that need restored and should be.

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Heheh... Don't make me invoke the old " looks like we will have to agree to disagree" are you?? Evidently working on those beautiful ceiling fans of yours high up on those ladders has deprived your brain of oxygen and there fore some quality thinking through this subject on your part for sure!!:D:D
Geo...:P:P:P
You do know I am having fun here and kidding you! I think it is a good Subject and to see other guys opinions on these matters!

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Hi Steve!I have them both ways and lovem all!!I do want to run them so I want them to work...Geo...

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George Durbin wrote: Heheh... Don't make me invoke the old " looks like we will have to agree to disagree" are you?? Evidently working on those beautiful ceiling fans of yours high up on those ladders has deprived your brain of oxygen and there fore some quality thinking through this subject on your part for sure!!:D:D
Geo...:P:P:P
You do know I am having fun here and kidding you! I think it is a good Subject and to see other guys opinions on these matters!

I'm not making you do anything Geo ...

You are doing a great job all by yourself.

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Steve Stephens wrote: Either you are born with the appreciation of old objects or not.


I don't think people are born into the appreciation of old items. Tastes are acquired over time, regardless of what the tastes are for. Some of us like restored fans, some of us like original fans, and some of us like both! Some of us change what we like as we gain experience. Some of my favorite fans are my really nice original fans with a beautiful patina to the brass. Other favorites of mine are my beautifully restored fans.

Whether or not a restored fan is worth more than a perfect condition original depends on the fan itself. As has been said, the more rare the fan the more I feel that a perfect original one will be worth more than a restored one.

However when it comes to common fans there is no doubt that restored ones are often worth way more than even perfect originals. Good luck selling a perfect original brass bell oscillator for more than $150. But a restored one could easily sell for $500+. 

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When I think of anything original, I think of the way it was when it was first made! And I can't think on one D-m thing that was ever made....that came with Patina.

Patina is nothing more than (I'm to lazy to clean It!)

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The END!!!

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Hi Dean!
I bet this is not the end of iit!:D  There are a thousand hits on this thread! A thousand lurkers! So that's quite a few that has an opinion that have not posted yet!

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Dean Steinhaus wrote: When I think of anything original, I think of the way it was when it was first made! And I can't think on one D-m thing that was ever made....that came with Patina.

Patina is nothing more than (I'm to lazy to clean It!)

Then you haven't even read the thread.


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However when it comes to common fans there is no doubt that restored ones are often worth way more than even perfect originals. Good luck selling a perfect original brass bell oscillator for more than $150. But a restored one could easily sell for $500+. 

Should read "But a "properly" restored one could easily sell for $500+ although I have seen crap restorations of dime store fans sell for $900 on eBay. There's a lot of poor restorations showing up on eBay lately, and you can tell the difference right away, but I don't think everyone is as discerning or meticulous in their restorations as you and some of the other guys Tim.

I would pay more for a more collectible good original condition fan than a restored one in general, but would pay more for a quality restoration of a more common fan than an original condition one.

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 07:13 pm by Michael Rathberger

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Hi Mike!There are different levels of restorations. MANY LEVELS!! Putting new cords on oiling and cleaning a fan is 1 level... All the way up to the full rotisserie restores taking them apart nut for nut, bolt for bolt! None are more correct than another... If fan manufactures back in the day could get a few more bucks out of a fan, Fans would have been buffed like  a mirror  like the members do here. Don't forget the makers built fans to what the market would bear... If they could sell them they would have made them out of platinum and gold! Just like today, it's about the bottom line...
Geo...

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 08:00 pm by George Durbin

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George Durbin wrote: Hi Mike!There are different levels of restorations. MANY LEVELS!! Putting new cords oiling and cleaning a fan is 1 level... All the way up to the full rotisserie restores taking them apart nut for nut, bolt for bolt! None are more correct than another... If fan manufactures back in the day could get a few more bucks out of a fan, Fans would have been buffed like  a mirror  like the members do here. Don't forget the makers built fans to what the market would bear... If they could sell them they would have made them out of platinum and gold! Just like today, it's about the bottom line...
Geo...

I don't consider cleaning and lubing a fan a restoration necessarily, I consider it servicing. When I said restoration, I put "quality" in front of it for a reason. It can be painted or paint just  thoroughly cleaned, but at a minimum would include getting it running properly, lubing, rewiring/rewinding, sealing choke and stator, balancing, polishing (or not), feet, cords, replacing worn parts, etc. Some have used the word "preservation" depending on paint and polish, but I see it as restoration nonetheless. 

Fan manufacturers made early fans like they did for a reason. The teens fans are not as ornate for a reason. The swan era fans look like they do for a reason. There's a profit motive in all of it.

 

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Which would you rather own?

Preserved Original Fan
http://whiteglovefans.com/blog/2014/3/14/1916-ge-two-star-oscillator
All original parts, paint finish was hand polished to a shine. Electrical components were sealed, head wire replaced. Blade balanced, etc.




Fully Restored Blingtastic
http://whiteglovefans.com/1911-ge-12-kidney/
The works including a motor re-wind.

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I would prefer which ever one doesn't have a cracked gearbox :P
Seriously, I like them both, but would lean towards the unrestored one. 

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Only one easy choice for me Tim and that's your really nice original below.  I have a question for you Tim; if you could only keep one of those two fans which would it be?


Tim Marks wrote: Which would you rather own?

Preserved Original Fan
http://whiteglovefans.com/blog/2014/3/14/1916-ge-two-star-oscillator
All original parts, paint finish was hand polished to a shine. Electrical components were sealed, head wire replaced. Blade balanced, etc.




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The two examples above are my two absolute favorite fans.

Both are silent, both oscillate superbly and are easy to use. One is a beautiful restored fan and the other is a beautiful preserved fan.

Neither of them have a century of dirt sitting on them. I am NOT a proponent of buying an old fan and doing nothing with it. Fans should be made to run and either preserved or restored PROPERLY so as to ensure they last a life time. I feel its a waste to have fans sitting on the shelf with no intent of cleaning or making them run. They only continue to degrade further away from usable condition.

If I could only keep one I would keep the Kidney. I put my heart and soul into that restoration and know that it will gain value for a century to come. I also love the two-star the most of any of my other fans aside from the kidney.

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 09:03 pm by Tim Marks

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Tim Marks wrote: Which would you rather own?

Preserved Original Fan
http://whiteglovefans.com/blog/2014/3/14/1916-ge-two-star-oscillator
All original parts, paint finish was hand polished to a shine. Electrical components were sealed, head wire replaced. Blade balanced, etc.

Fully Restored Blingtastic
http://whiteglovefans.com/1911-ge-12-kidney/
The works including a motor re-wind.



Both very well done restorations/preservations. I'll take the six wing fan. However, if the Kidney was a six wing fan, I'd take that one. If the 2 star was a 4 wing fan, I would have answered the Kidney.

Neither fan is in the realm of super collectible for me, so it's a toss up, the 6 wings make the difference, I really like the look of them (I also own one of those already).

Another example of my outlook on fans. I hesitated on a little Carelton ball motor at Aiken, it was the coolest little restoration I had seen and a great price. It was gone by the time I looped back. I would have taken that one over any original condition Carelton, but again, not super collectible. There was a Manhatten battery fan there that was fully restored, I passed because I would have preferred a fan like that original. I decided to save my money for Indy.

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Michael Rathberger wrote: Both very well done restorations/preservations. I'll take the six wing fan. However, if the Kidney was a six wing fan, I'd take that one. If the 2 star was a 4 wing fan, I would have answered the Kidney.

Neither fan is in the realm of super collectible for me, so it's a toss up, the 6 wings make the difference, I really like the look of them (I also own one of those already).


The kidney is a six wing ;)

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Tim Marks wrote: Michael Rathberger wrote:
The kidney is a six wing ;)


I guess I would have picked the wrong one then.

From the pic it looked like a 4 wing to me...

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The kidney is soo shiny I cant see the six blades! Any one have a NOS kidney still in an unopened box? Preservation? restoration? We are all dancing around the the answer here. I have a question for Tim and Steve or any one with an opinion... If you have a kidney preserved like the 2-star. And both kidneys setting next to each other on a table at a garage sale. Which one would you price higher?  Or would you price them the same? How would you explain the difference between them? I think both will last a hunnert years?  Right?
geo...

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 10:43 pm by George Durbin

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For a good restoration I would probably price the restored fan higher.  One has to recoup the costs of the restoration or, at least figure it into the value/cost.  Maybe I would price the unrestored one higher so it wouldn't sell and I could keep it.  

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George Durbin wrote: The kidney is soo shiny I cant see the six blades! Any one have a NOS kidney still in an unopened box? Preservation? restoration? We are all dancing around the the answer here. I have a question for Tim and Steve or any one with an opinion... If you have a kidney preserved like the 2-star. And both kidneys setting next to each other on a table at a garage sale. Which one would you price higher?  Or would you price them the same? How would you explain the difference between them? I think both will last a hunnert years?  Right?
geo...

I believe without a doubt that if both the fans I pictured above were equal fans, let's say both of them were six-wing kidney fans, that the restored one would sell for considerably higher than the unrestored one. 

I'm willing to say even $1k for the restored one and $500 for the unrestored one. Just a guess based on ebay values in the past.

I think this is an example of more common fans being worth more money restored. The same is not necessarily true with ultra rare fans.

T

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 10:58 pm by Tim Marks

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With the added time and materials for a restored fan it would seem natural that it would sell for more.  I think buyers of restored fans expect to pay more since they usually can't restore the fans themselves and may know the true costs for a quality restoration.

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Steve Stephens wrote: With the added time and materials for a restored fan it would seem natural that it would sell for more.  I think buyers of restored fans expect to pay more since they usually can't restore the fans themselves and may know the true costs for a quality restoration.
Steve-

While that's true and I respect your point, when it comes to pricing on ebay it really has nothing to do with what the costs are. It only has to do with what people will pay and therefore what the value is.

There are much higher costs in certain restorations than others but if the consumer can't tell the difference than the pricing will be the same between them. 

The example of $1k versus $500 for the restored versus original kidney is an example of the value of the fans. Not their cost.

Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2014 11:06 pm by Tim Marks

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Steve Stephens wrote: For a good restoration I would probably price the restored fan higher.  One has to recoup the costs of the restoration or, at least figure it into the value/cost.  Maybe I would price the unrestored one higher so it wouldn't sell and I could keep it.  

Truer words never spoken!:P:P:P
geo...

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To me, I get a warm feeling when i see an unmolested fan that looks good and runs well. It even smells right. I like being the first man to ever crack into that virginal motor case with the 1917 headwire that was soldered on by a very tired 14-year old girl. It's like opening a door that has been shut longer than any living person can remember. It's an honor. And a pure energy. 

A fully rebuilt fan with an $800 paint job is beautiful, but in a modern art or a Hollywood way. Mesmerizing in the silky smoothness of it base coat and the depth of the clear, polished for a king. Like an object that fell from the stars. 

It's like deciding if you want to take Norma Jean to the ice cream counter to stare into her eyes or to take Marylyn Monroe to the Academy Awards and stare down her blouse.  

Fans - take more than one if you want. 

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My vote is...... The kidney!! Both look great, but I like the kidney fan itself better. Plus, it's restored :P.

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This thread has sufficiently died and now here is my theory on anything when it comes to something you like or value...:cool:
It is all between your ears what you think something is worth, and what you want to do with it!!:shock:
A child will always think a nickle is worth more than a dime, its their idea of the world at that time. Some collectors will give more for emersons than ge's and vice-versa. Some think preserved is more valuable than restored. Its their perception! No one is free of this discrimination. Its all between your ears. Look at how many fads have come and gone. While something is hot it is perceived to be worth more, when the fad passes it is worth nearly nothing. Beanie babies, cabbage patch dolls, there are thousands of examples...:? When you say or think "I got to have that" You probably gonna pay too much. Girls, cars, fans, anything popular...:D Go with the flow and enjoy it! Dont deal with the ones you dont like. Always say good things about other collectors here on the forum. Say what you want in private but dont forget you might be recorded!!!:P:P
Any way...    ITS ALL BETWEEN YOURS EARS!!
geo...

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 09:10 pm by George Durbin

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In the antique underwares collector world most like the patina left in tact.

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That would be gently used...:P

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Gary Hagan wrote: In the antique underwares collector world most like the patina left in tact.
Clearly you haven't read the thread. That underwear is not patina until it's at least two or three weeks old.

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Tim Marks wrote: Gary Hagan wrote: In the antique underwares collector world most like the patina left in tact.
Clearly you haven't read the thread. That underwear is not patina until it's at least two or three weeks old.

To some that is a valuable set of drawers! I will not poo poo Gary ' s collection of them!:D
Geo...

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George Durbin wrote:
To some that is a valuable set of drawers! I will not poo poo Gary ' s collection of them!:D
Geo...

You'd probably bling them out with tie-dye, Geo! Some people just don't understand antiques or how to appreciate them.

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George Durbin wrote: This thread has sufficiently died and now here is my theory on anything when it comes to something you like or value...:cool:
It is all between your ears what you think something is worth, and what you want to do with it!!:shock:
As a child will always think a nickle is worth more than a dime, its their idea of the world at that time. Some collectors will give more for emersons than ge's and vice-versa. Some think preserved is more valuable than restored. Its their perception! No one is free of this discrimination. Its all between your ears. Look at how many fads have come and gone. While something is hot it is perceived to be worth more, when the fad passes it is worth nearly nothing. Beanie babies, cabbage patch dolls, there are thousands of examples...:? When you say or think "I got to have that" You probably gonna pay too much. Girls, cars, fans, anything popular...:D Go with the flow and enjoy it! Dont deal with the ones you dont like. Always say good things about other collectors here on the forum. Say what you want in private but dont forget you might be recorded!!!:P:P
Any way...    ITS ALL BETWEEN YOURS EARS!!
geo...

Geo,

Your likes or dislikes have only a marginal effect on market forces.

It is simply a fact that most well preserved antiques are worth more, and in most cases, much more than a restored item.

And that's from your wallet, not between your ears.

Be thankful you can pick up de-patinated antiques for a fraction of the patinated version and shine them every night.

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Tim:
Either and both of those 2-Stars are worthy of ownership of which I would be equally proud.  I have one that looked like it had sat out in the rain since 1917 or so and it proudly sits in my living room happily restored (sans the lower Star).

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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: This thread has sufficiently died and now here is my theory on anything when it comes to something you like or value...:cool:
It is all between your ears what you think something is worth, and what you want to do with it!!:shock:
As a child will always think a nickle is worth more than a dime, its their idea of the world at that time. Some collectors will give more for emersons than ge's and vice-versa. Some think preserved is more valuable than restored. Its their perception! No one is free of this discrimination. Its all between your ears. Look at how many fads have come and gone. While something is hot it is perceived to be worth more, when the fad passes it is worth nearly nothing. Beanie babies, cabbage patch dolls, there are thousands of examples...:? When you say or think "I got to have that" You probably gonna pay too much. Girls, cars, fans, anything popular...:D Go with the flow and enjoy it! Dont deal with the ones you dont like. Always say good things about other collectors here on the forum. Say what you want in private but dont forget you might be recorded!!!:P:P
Any way...    ITS ALL BETWEEN YOURS EARS!!
geo...

Geo,

Your likes or dislikes have only a marginal effect on market forces.

It is simply a fact that most well preserved antiques are worth more, and in most cases, much more than a restored item.

And that's from your wallet, not between your ears.

Be thankful you can pick up de-patinated antiques for a fraction of the patinated version and shine them every night.

Hi  Tom!Nothing has value unless someone wants it! Perceived or other wise. It could be a rare one of a kind rock on a beach and until someone wants or desires it, it will be worth nothing...Geo...

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As I see it Great Original>Great restore>shabby original>shabby restore

signed

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John Rothrock wrote: As I see it Great Original>Great restore>shabby original>shabby restore

signed

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Hi John!You could be right! Geo...

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A friend of mine bought me a fan at a garage sale for a $10 spot. I gave him $20. Sold it to a collector for $80 She sold it to another collector for $160. This guy sold it to a flea market vendor for $200... Some guy off the street bought it for $250... Poor ba**ard died... His widow didn't like the fan and sold it at her garage sale for $10. My friend gave her a $10 spot and sold it to me for $20..........................
Geo...

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I keep my fans in their original condition, I only restore them if they are really rusted, the ones I restored were a zero box fan, and a patton u2 1887 that was really corroded

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 06:15 am by Derek Anthony

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George Durbin wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: This thread has sufficiently died and now here is my theory on anything when it comes to something you like or value...:cool:
It is all between your ears what you think something is worth, and what you want to do with it!!:shock:
As a child will always think a nickle is worth more than a dime, its their idea of the world at that time. Some collectors will give more for emersons than ge's and vice-versa. Some think preserved is more valuable than restored. Its their perception! No one is free of this discrimination. Its all between your ears. Look at how many fads have come and gone. While something is hot it is perceived to be worth more, when the fad passes it is worth nearly nothing. Beanie babies, cabbage patch dolls, there are thousands of examples...:? When you say or think "I got to have that" You probably gonna pay too much. Girls, cars, fans, anything popular...:D Go with the flow and enjoy it! Dont deal with the ones you dont like. Always say good things about other collectors here on the forum. Say what you want in private but dont forget you might be recorded!!!:P:P
Any way...    ITS ALL BETWEEN YOURS EARS!!
geo...

Geo,

Your likes or dislikes have only a marginal effect on market forces.

It is simply a fact that most well preserved antiques are worth more, and in most cases, much more than a restored item.

And that's from your wallet, not between your ears.

Be thankful you can pick up de-patinated antiques for a fraction of the patinated version and shine them every night.

Hi  Tom!Nothing has value unless someone wants it! Perceived or other wise. It could be a rare one of a kind rock on a beach and until someone wants or desires it, it will be worth nothing...Geo...


Mythbusters proved you could polish excrement.

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John Rothrock wrote: As I see it Great Original>Great restore>shabby original>shabby restore

signed

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How I see it:

Great original > great preservation.

Shabby original > great restoration.  

At least that's how I think it works out best.

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Hahah Tom!I never tried polishing one of those! I did try a few times to put lipstick on a pig!Geo...

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George Durbin wrote:

A friend of mine bought me a fan at a garage sale for a $10 spot. I gave him $20. Sold it to a collector for $80 She sold it to another collector for $160. This guy sold it to a flea market vendor for $200... Some guy off the street bought it for $250... Poor ba**ard died... His widow didn't like the fan and sold it at her garage sale for $10. My friend gave her a $10 spot and sold it to me for $20..........................
Geo...



the circle of life...

I have been going to a few auctions lately and you always see the old guy who's buying quantity on everything that goes cheap, wonder if in 10 years I'll be going to his sale and buying that same stuff, then in about 30 years somebody will come to my estate sale and steal all my treaures

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John Rothrock wrote: George Durbin wrote:

A friend of mine bought me a fan at a garage sale for a $10 spot. I gave him $20. Sold it to a collector for $80 She sold it to another collector for $160. This guy sold it to a flea market vendor for $200... Some guy off the street bought it for $250... Poor ba**ard died... His widow didn't like the fan and sold it at her garage sale for $10. My friend gave her a $10 spot and sold it to me for $20..........................
Geo...



the circle of life...

I have been going to a few auctions lately and you always see the old guy who's buying quantity on everything that goes cheap, wonder if in 10 years I'll be going to his sale and buying that same stuff, then in about 30 years somebody will come to my estate sale and steal all my treaures


In 30 years! Look at all that patina!!:D
Geo..

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John Rothrock wrote: George Durbin wrote:

A friend of mine bought me a fan at a garage sale for a $10 spot. I gave him $20. Sold it to a collector for $80 She sold it to another collector for $160. This guy sold it to a flea market vendor for $200... Some guy off the street bought it for $250... Poor ba**ard died... His widow didn't like the fan and sold it at her garage sale for $10. My friend gave her a $10 spot and sold it to me for $20..........................
Geo...



the circle of life...

I have been going to a few auctions lately and you always see the old guy who's buying quantity on everything that goes cheap, wonder if in 10 years I'll be going to his sale and buying that same stuff, then in about 30 years somebody will come to my estate sale and steal all my treaures

Circle of life indeed. Went to a estate sale this weekend of a man who collected lighting for over 40 years. Wife wants out, has to clear out the building for sale. 2200 pieces of glass and multiple parts bins. Bought almost 100 shades in every size, shape and color....handpainted.....gasolier.....holophane.....mission......gravity bowl......Handel........cut glass electric.......blown globes.......$10 each. No chandelier more than $60, for fully rewired gas/electrics.

40 years of collecting reduced to $10 each. Better watch Ebay, there were multiple individuals purchasing for resale.

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Andrew Block wrote: John Rothrock wrote: George Durbin wrote:

A friend of mine bought me a fan at a garage sale for a $10 spot. I gave him $20. Sold it to a collector for $80 She sold it to another collector for $160. This guy sold it to a flea market vendor for $200... Some guy off the street bought it for $250... Poor ba**ard died... His widow didn't like the fan and sold it at her garage sale for $10. My friend gave her a $10 spot and sold it to me for $20..........................
Geo...



the circle of life...

I have been going to a few auctions lately and you always see the old guy who's buying quantity on everything that goes cheap, wonder if in 10 years I'll be going to his sale and buying that same stuff, then in about 30 years somebody will come to my estate sale and steal all my treaures

Circle of life indeed. Went to a estate sale this weekend of a man who collected lighting for over 40 years. Wife wants out, has to clear out the building for sale. 2200 pieces of glass and multiple parts bins. Bought almost 100 shades in every size, shape and color....handpainted.....gasolier.....holophane.....mission......gravity bowl......Handel........cut glass electric.......blown globes.......$10 each. No chandelier more than $60, for fully rewired gas/electrics.

40 years of collecting reduced to $10 each. Better watch Ebay, there were multiple individuals purchasing for resale.

I have been to enough auctions to have seen many items more than once in far separate locations.  I fully believe that there is stuff that spends eternity traveling to one auction after another (some with stops in various stores and warehouses).

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I'd want both of the fans above, but the original would be my preference if I could only have one.
I like finely restored items of all sorts, beautifully preserved originals, and well-worn but cared for originals, and old restorations.  Everything has its place.
My favorite fan is the Century below and I only plan to replace the cord and headwire, and the Tank ties with the Trojan below for a very close second place;




I don't "like" the rust on the base of the Century, but I also feel it gives it character.
It reminds me of an article I read about Carroll Shelby.   He could drive anything he wanted, but his favorite car was an un-restored 289 Cobra with polished, but cracked paint and a well-worn drive-line.

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 08:20 pm by Wayne Bengston

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I don't have a ribbed base emerson, but I will someday!I have this s-4 16" century. It is a mixed bag and I love it! The stump is preserved and rewired. Paint was 95% I had it buffed and adjusted the brushes so it runs nicely! The cage had several breaks. It was repaired and buffed. The blade had a cracked wing and so all 4 were replaced and buffed to beauty... 
I still need to black out the badge....

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Very early serial number "556". I think it is still the second earliest serial number and I think there are only 12-15 non oscillators known at this time.... I will bring this one to Fan Fair in Indy this year...

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George Durbin wrote: I have this s-4 16" century.  I had it buffed and adjusted the brushes so it runs nicely!  
Adjusted WHAT brushes?

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Steve Stephens wrote: George Durbin wrote: I have this s-4 16" century.  I had it buffed and adjusted the brushes so it runs nicely!  
Adjusted WHAT brushes?


Yeah... I will edit that statement... "and adjusted the contacts on the rotor!" They are touchy in their adjustments! Nice catch Steve!!How do you like that original paint?
geo...

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That S4 is incredible.

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George Durbin wrote:
Yeah... I will edit that statement... "and adjusted the contacts on the rotor!" They are touchy in their adjustments!.

Contacts to the rotor?  That's an AC motor and I don't know where there would be contacts.  Maybe you mean to the start switch?

To be truthful I don't care for polished high gloss japan on old fans and have come to decide that after getting some fans which have been so treated.  But you did a nice job on the fan and saving the paint.  I've gotten to the point of being reluctant to clean japan too much for fear that it will be too glossy (which it probably was when new but maybe not quite so much as if polished).

Also, Century cast iron fan blades and cage were not polished when new, they had a type of gilt finish as did most GEs from 1908 to 1915.  Too much polished brass is overpowering to me and takes away the antique look for me.

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 09:50 pm by Steve Stephens

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Contacts to the switch? I am no expert on these or even a very good amatuer... It is the copper leafy thing under that thar screw that protrudes into the motor and is tensioned against the rotor like thingy that you are saying is the switchamabob!:cool::cool:
geo...

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Steve Stephens wrote: George Durbin wrote:
Yeah... I will edit that statement... "and adjusted the contacts on the rotor!" They are touchy in their adjustments!.

Contacts to the rotor?  That's an AC motor and I don't know where there would be contacts.  Maybe you mean to the start switch?

To be truthful I don't care for polished high gloss japan on old fans and have come to decide that after getting some fans which have been so treated.  But you did a nice job on the fan and saving the paint.  I've gotten to the point of being reluctant to clean japan too much for fear that it will be too glossy (which it probably was when new but maybe not quite so much as if polished).

Also, Century cast iron fan blades and cage were not polished when new, they had a type of gilt finish as did most GEs from 1908 to 1915.  Too much polished brass is overpowering to me and takes away the antique look for me.



If that very expensive fan "for its time" was in an enviornment, or any other fan for that matter, and the owner cleaned their home and dusted and took some time, It was cleaned, buffed and waxed! I will let these blades and cage patina a little. Fans were a luxury! People took care of them... I would say fans got most of their abuse probably when second owners took them over or were handed down and the new owners did not respect them or knew how to maintain them,  then! they got run them into the dirt some 50 years later... JMHO...
geo...

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 10:52 pm by George Durbin

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I'm not saying this is the correct view, but my impression is that most Century's were used in more industrial settings where a dusting is the most likely thing they would get. I can just picture one or two of them in the old control rooms of the refinery here.

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Wayne Bengston wrote: I'm not saying this is the correct view, but my impression is that most Century's were used in more industrial settings where a dusting is the most likely thing they would get. I can just picture one or two of them in the old control rooms of the refinery here.

Hi Wayne!From everything I have read you are correct... If I had a way back machine that would be one of my many stops! FANS BEFORE THE 20s were quite a luxury for middle class and up. The cost were a couple of weeks wages... So I am pretty sure you took very good care of them...
Geo...

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I'm sure that many owners took very good care of their fans including dusting, certainly lubricating, maybe washing dirty blades but I would be surprised if a significant number would polish and wax the fans.  It doesn't really matter because we have no way of knowing how the first owners treated their expensive fans.   My comments were mostly to say how I prefer my fans; others will probably want their fans to be different.  My way is correct only for me.

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I was scanning a book written by Robert Ballard (or someone on his expedition) as an account of the location of the Titanic and there was a photo of a cabin on one of the lower levels that had a wall mounted fan that had those wedge shaped blades (similar to a slice of pizza).  Then somewhere on the same page was a photo of a similar fan lying on the sea floors partially covered in muck with the blades and cage partially visible.  They didn't retrieve it.  :X

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That would be some major provenance!!Geo...

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In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

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Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.

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Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...

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Steve Stephens wrote: I'm sure that many owners took very good care of their fans including dusting, certainly lubricating, maybe washing dirty blades but I would be surprised if a significant number would polish and wax the fans.  It doesn't really matter because we have no way of knowing how the first owners treated their expensive fans.   My comments were mostly to say how I prefer my fans; others will probably want their fans to be different.  My way is correct only for me.
I know it's a little bit different, but my Father always made me wax any new piece of farm equipment or lawn mower etc that we got, also old trailers, pretty much anything with paint, at the time, I didn't get it at all, but I have to say his stuff held up pretty well.  He picked that up from somewhere--I'm sure some waxed their fans

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George Durbin wrote:
Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...


Neither original nor excellent condition.

How many holes are you going to put in your feet?

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Steve Stephens wrote: John Rothrock wrote: As I see it Great Original>Great restore>shabby original>shabby restore

signed

Lurker
How I see it:

Great original > great preservation.

Shabby original > great restoration.  

At least that's how I think it works out best.
Simply said.... Simply true. IMO... 

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Tom Dreesen wrote: Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.
I don't have time to argue, nor do I have time to pick through this "reply" and delete non necessary information (it's getting late and I'm hungry :D). I do have the time, right now, to say look at Alan Wilms properly restored Edison's. They seem to sell for more than "market value" from what I've seen researching the AFCA's previous sales on iron clads, 6 and 12 pole c frames....... And, as you may know, they are over 5k fans. Just sayin.... 

Last edited on Wed May 21st, 2014 07:32 am by Josh Backens

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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:
Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...


Neither original nor excellent condition.

How many holes are you going to put in your feet?

You are right about not original! I know very little about them and could see it has issues. And I defer to you guys that know... Holes in my feet? I removed my shoes and socks and had a GOOD look... Nope, no holes...:DI have not been shot down yet!! Keep tryin!:cool::cool:
geo...

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Josh Backens wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.
I don't have time to argue, nor do I have time to pick through this "reply" and delete non necessary information (it's getting late and I'm hungry :D). I do have the time, right now, to say look at Alan Wilms properly restored Edison's. They seem to sell for more than "market value" from what I've seen researching the AFCA's previous sales on iron clads, 6 and 12 pole c frames....... And, as you may know, they are over 5k fans. Just sayin....

Were the fans that were restored already in excellent original condition?

That is the comparison to make.

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Here is a most Excellent R&M Tank by Carlton Ward  - - 98% original paint. I can live with a few blemishes. How much would this fan cost with a TOTAL tear down & re-paint?


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Steven P Dempsey wrote: Here is a most Excellent R&M Tank by Carlton Ward  - - 98% original paint. I can live with a few blemishes. How much would this fan cost with a TOTAL tear down & re-paint?
The cost of the redo or the value of the fan after the redo?

Not the same thing ...

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I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...

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George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
No one would argue that any fan should remain in "as found" condition.

Many items need a redo to get them into functional and or presentable condition.

The proper comparison is an excellent condition original vs a restored version.

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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
No one would argue that any fan should remain in "as found" condition.

Many items need a redo to get them into functional and or presentable condition.

The proper comparison is an excellent condition original vs a restored version.


I always wonder how many pre 1930 fans might be out there in a new unopened box somewhere...:? I think thats what keeps us hunting!geo...

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George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
The stripes on that one appear to have almost definitely been gone over. Not original.

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I've been a phonograph collector for well over 50 years. I've only been into fans for about 6 years. My general impression is that there is a major difference in collecting philosophy. Perhaps not as extreme as the Roadshow allusions to furniture or lamp collectors, but in a similar vein.

Among phonograph collectors, originality is king. Restoration is accepted only when a machine is so far gone that it is truly ugly and the original surfaces not salvageable. Otherwise it comes down to conservation, not restoration. No one wants something with crud, dirt, rust and other ugly damage. The trick is to clean off such filth without losing the whatever original luster/finish remains. This is exactly what museums do today. Years ago they were all about restoration; there are some god-awful restored pieces in the Smithsonian that were done in the 60s/70s. No one would do that today. A good conservator can work magic, bringing a wreck back to life but without doing anything that permanently changes the fundamental integrity of the piece. Dirt and grime is not integrity; original paint is. It's possible to clean brass and prevent degradation without polishing to a high luster and lacquering it to keep it shiny.

A few years ago I found myself in the highly amazing situation of being offered two C&C bulb resistance fans at the same time: one gorgeously restored, one (mostly) original. Both were stunning in their own way but to me it was a no-brainer. I went for original, even though the cost was higher. Any antique is only original once. When I compare the sharp edges of my original base with original japanning, despite some chips and flaws, to the heavily polished and painted restored base I can see that tremendous amount of fine detail was lost in the restoration.

Again, sometimes an object is too far gone for conservation and restoration is the only option. But far too often a perfectly nice original piece is painted and polished to make it shiny and 'new' when conservation would have been the best choice.

I am guilty of that myself. Years ago I had a very fine original 1935 slot machine. It was excellent in every way. But I wanted a project so I decided to strip, buff, paint, and refinish the cabinet, and replace the reel strips. Very, very few slot machines survive in original condition, much less excellent original condition. In retrospect, I ruined a wonderful machine and turned into just another restored slot, indistinguishable from a thousand others -- or from some replicas. Once I woke up and realized what I had done I couldn't stand the piece and I sold it -- at a loss. I have since replaced it with a fine original, exactly like the first one I had. I will never restore it, but I will keep it maintained -- cleaned as needed, oiled, and functional. That's conservation.

My 2c and well worth it in today's economy....

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While I'm at it, a few more thoughts that I should have included: what Ron Jeter does with his famous Q-tips is conservation at its most meticulous. His attention to detail in removing every speck of grime while keeping the original finish is mind-boggling and clearly a labor of love. I really admire that. To me that's infinitely better than bead-blasting a casting and painting/clear-coating it to better than new.

I also understand that sometimes that doesn't work. I have some restored fans. Some could even be called "blinged out", though not with non-authentic color schemes. My Crocker-Wheeler is one of them. It was beyond mere conservation, that one needed full-bore restoration, top to bottom. But-- I like it far more today than when I bought it. Why? Well, the nickel plating has started to tone very nicely over the past few years. It is no longer brilliantly shiny and new. It is showing -- dare I say it? -- genuine patina. I'll like it even more in 10 years when the nickel has dulled further, to the point that it will be hard to distinguish from original century-old plating.

It's sort of like my 1928 Ford, which I drive daily. It was restored over 20 years ago. It shows age. It has some wear and dings and chips. Anyone with only passing knowledge would look at it and think it is a remarkably well-maintained original. Of course it's not, but I love the fact that it doesn't look like a fresh, new restoration. It shows age. In this case, like the Crocker-Wheeler, not original age but both are now a long way from shiny bling, and I love them all the more for that. Those are to me the ideal restorations: they don't look new.

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Rene' ..... very well said, every word.  Great big picture look into this topic.

I appreciate it when this topic of restoration vs. original is placed into a larger context of other fields of collecting.   In those areas in which I collect, there is no substitute for original finishes.   When that is not possible, or an object has been poorly restored or polished, the artisans, in those fields,  are recognized in restoring patina to a given object.  This has to be ultimately more difficult than a showroom finish that we see here. 

I'm concerned that we see fans that have finishes that were never seen when produced, I'm concerned that we see fans created that were never originally produced.  We must be careful to protect our hobby and our investments.  I'm reminded of the confederate civil war sword.   So often reproduced, and so well done, that no confederate sword has much value any more because of how muddy those waters became. 

I wish someone would specialize in the restoration of fans to look old.  I've tried to not reply to this thread but failed again.   To me, this is a very important topic.   My friend Jeff Lock of Colonial instruments is a master of "older" restorations of scientific instruments.   There is no one better,  he signs replacement parts on important instruments.  For a philosophical look into his business and restorations, here's a link...... again.   

http://www.colonialinstruments.com

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Just one more thing……..   I have collected surveying instruments as well as fans.   Both have something in common.    They were both used, and used hard.   Surveying compasses were carried into the field in the rain and the mud, handled and handled relentlessly.    Even in well cared for condition, they carry a high degree of patina.  Fans are the same ……. used, year after year and as a result will also obtain a grand patina, even if well cared for.   Microscopes are different.  I feel, even during their day, among  those that used them,  they could have wore white gloves with respect for their instrument.  They are often found in pristine original condition with grand walnut storage boxes. 

One important distinction is also the fact that certain fans are common, in comparison.   There are plenty of 1902 pancakes for both camps.  But when it comes to rare fans from the 1890’s,  that is a different matter and collectors really need to think about how, or if, these fans are handled.   Pictured is a rare pillared transit in “as found” condition.  To polish it in anyway, would ruin it’s value and no knowledgeable collector would accept this instrument in polished condition. 

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John Trier wrote: Just one more thing……..   I have collected surveying instruments as well as fans.   Both have something in common.    They were both used, and used hard.   Surveying compasses were carried into the field in the rain and the mud, handled and handled relentlessly.    Even in well cared for condition, they carry a high degree of patina.  Fans are the same ……. used, year after year and as a result will also obtain a grand patina, even if well cared for.   Microscopes are different.  I feel, even during their day, among  those that used them,  they could have wore white gloves with respect for their instrument.  They are often found in pristine original condition with grand walnut storage boxes. 

One important distinction is also the fact that certain fans are common, in comparison.   There are plenty of 1902 pancakes for both camps.  But when it comes to rare fans from the 1890’s,  that is a different matter and collectors really need to think about how, or if, these fans are handled.   Pictured is a rare pillared transit in “as found” condition.  To polish it in anyway, would ruin it’s value and no knowledgeable collector would accept this instrument in polished condition.

You got it John.

Most scientific instruments were well cared for.  Maybe not polished all the time, but definitely kept in clean condition until technology improved and instruments replaced.  They were then put into storage and never saw the light of day until some lab cleanout.  The instruments most likely develop their "patina" while in decades of storage.

I don't like them highly polished either, but then, I don't collect them.

 

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John Trier wrote:  I'm reminded of the confederate civil war sword.   So often reproduced, and so well done, that no confederate sword has much value any more because of how muddy those waters became.
I'm wandering a bit off-topic here but you bring up a good point. There is certainly a need for well-made replica parts in order to restore fans (and other antiques) that so often are missing critical details. Obviously there are a couple of directions people can go with replica parts -- full-bore restoration, or 'aging' a new part to match the luster of an original piece and fit in unobtrusively.

Fortunately in the fan world replicas of entire fans aren't often encountered. (At least one exception, however: lots and lots of totally fake Jost hot-air motor fans are being made in Asia.) But the danger is there, and that danger is something which a lot of hobbies face -- like the aforementioned Confederate sword: some reproductions are so well done that they can be hard to detect as copies. And over the long term, these bring down the value of originals.

I hope that doesn't start to happen with rare fans, but I suspect there could already be some "conversions" turning fairly common styles into rarer variations, and those could have long term affect on the hobby.

The coin-op hobby is tanking because of all the fakes out there. It has become very, very hard to find some original slot machines, trade stimulators, and arcade machines because they are outnumbered by fakes, some of which are very well-made. Others wouldn't fool an experienced collector, but newcomers to the hobby are falling for them every day.

And not just on eBay, which we know is a 'buyer beware' minefield. The largest specialty auction house in antique coin-ops routinely offers fakes as part of every auction, and almost never are they identified as such. I find that appalling. They know better but they're putting a quick buck above a trustworthy reputation.

Some go beyond mere fakes, taking an original mechanism from one machine and putting it into a newly-cast case that makes it a great rarity. There's now even a whole range of fantasy creations. machines that never really existed. Again, experienced collectors won't fall for them but new collectors are getting burned all the time, and a lot of them quit the hobby in disgust when they find out how badly they were taken. Talk to any long-time coin-op collector and you'll hear the same complaint: the hobby is dying, death by a thousand small cuts.

Collectors need to be vigilant about guarding the integrity of the hobby, and part of that is being honest about any restoration that may have been done. If I sell something that I know has reproduction parts, no matter how unobtrusive they may be, I make it a point to clearly describe every non-original piece. But I can't count on the buyer, or the buyer after him, doing the same. Someday, long after I'm gone, many of these reproduction parts will be virtually impossible to detect. Like so many of the parts in the fan hobby, they almost too perfectly made. That's a mixed blessing.

[/OT]

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Thanks John and Rene', for your comments and insight. I too have been following this thread with interest while trying to avoid comment, knowing which side each would take. Personally I don't much care for dirt and rust, and tend toward the shine, but I have also made my share of mistakes in that regard.
I've always realized however that there are no absolutes concerning all of these  restoration vs. not even wiping the dust off discussions. I have never read anything concerning this topic that I agree with more, Rene'.
 

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I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

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William Dunlap wrote: I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill,

You must go into conniption fits whenever you see what old pieces of stone used to pound poi go for ...

 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200606A44.html

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Nah, my emotional range is extremely limited tending to lean towards "a bit disturbed" at the outside.
Mostly I ignore the goings on of others with more money than sense and go about my daily business, whatever it may be. Hanging doors, refinishing cabinets for the landlady, restoring old motorbikes and old fans. You know, craftsmanship.
Cheers,
Bill

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William Dunlap wrote: I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

There is no question about the talent available within the AFCA.  There is also no question about the value of these mass produced "appliances".   However, it is a concern if some of this talent or others would decide to start making Paragon's or Iron Clads indistinguishable from originals.   Those who invested tens of thousands of dollars into an original example would see their investment wiped out, and then a dark cloud hovers over the entire field of fan collecting. 
  
Authentic reproduction parts are necessary to everyone who collects anything.  I hope I'm not misunderstood.  Jeff Lock, mentioned above, has been widely criticized for his honesty and the fact that he signs reproduction parts.  Those who have instruments with reproduction parts would prefer that it would be their own private dirty little secret and not identified as reproduction.

If you can access archives of 60 minutes, do a search on reproductions of old masters and art forgery.   This guy ...... could reflect the style of virtually any old master and could pass off paintings as authentic.   His angle: ........ Claim they were stolen by the Nazi's during WWII and then recovered.  They then became "new to the market" ....  This guy bought old paintings just to get the wooden frame to stretch the canvas.   The paint he used was chemically perfect.  He made millions and even attended the auctions where his forgeries were sold.   He got caught using a "white" color that the experts discovered didn't exist a century ago. 

Last edited on Sun May 25th, 2014 12:36 am by John Trier

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I have tried to remain true to the original post topic and many have contributed to the discussion constructively, but I have to take exception to the notion that our hobby is being harmed by anyone's participation in it whether they are personal museum curators, hobbyists, craftsmen, or interior decorators.I have been involved in other hobbies that are much more active and vibrant that fan collecting and there are some obvious reasons why.

If fans are simply acquired, dusted and put away on the shelf, eventually all the fans will be accounted for and the hobby will just die.

End of story.

If folks are actively buying, selling, restoring and using these fans, everyone will benefit. The trade in fans is what keeps it alive. Fans moving around from one person to the next is the lubrication that makes the whole thing run.

We absolutely need folks who are willing to remake these fans and parts and keep the hobby going.

Based on the logic I've seen above, any kidney oscillator with a reproduction gearbox is next to worthless. How far from the truth is that?

I would love to see someone reproduce a quality pancake at a reasonable price. I'd save my money and buy one. Don't think for a minute that having a flawless reproduction pancake on the market would in any way devalue original ones. Wouldn't happen.

If anything, it would stimulate MORE interest in these fans, I guarantee it.
Meeston, you bet, but actually, they're not a great fan for daily use, are they? That probably wouldn't fly, because as the original makers would tell you, fans got a lot better later on.

I will concede that there are a few early fans that transcended the mundane life of an appliance and entered the realm of fine art.  They belong in museums.
I'll never own one because I'm just not interested in museum pieces.

As investments are concerned. I can think of a dozen better ways to get a better return on your money.
Cheers,Bill


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There it is. I finally got down to the original patina!

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The only patina in that booth is laying in the bottom!

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The thing about fans is you must maintain them if your going to run them safely. It is an electrical appliance of course, so you are changing them...Just got back from pig picking yesterday and it was nice weather! Good friends new and old. On the benches were fans of all kinds! Inexpensive fans clear up to the multi thousand dollar fans. That's another good thing about collecting fans, there is a price level for everyone! Every one was doing their own thing. Repairing, restoring at different levels and every one was pitching in and helping each other to get to where the OWNER of the fan thought it should go... When asked what to do with a repair or a restore, advice was given from many members. The OWNER of the fan then decided or will decide what they will do with it. There is NO one right answer!
It's all between your ears...
Geo...

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George Durbin wrote: The thing about fans is you must maintain them if your going to run them safely. It is an electrical appliance of course, so you are changing them...Just got back from pig picking yesterday and it was nice weather! Good friends new and old. On the benches were fans of all kinds! Inexpensive fans clear up to the multi thousand dollar fans. That's another good thing about collecting fans, there is a price level for everyone! Every one was doing their own thing. Repairing, restoring at different levels and every one was pitching in and helping each other to get to where the OWNER of the fan thought it should go... When asked what to do with a repair or a restore, advice was given from many members. The OWNER of the fan then decided or will decide what they will do with it. There is NO one right answer!
It's all between your ears...
Geo...


George,

It is clear you can't understand.

There is a real value difference in excellent original condition 5K plus fans vs restored.

Anyone can do what they want to any item they own.  But please, if you do run across a rare excellent condition anything, offer it for sale before you ruin it.

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Heheh...Hi Tom!You assume alot!Do not assume for me or any one else... I will decide...:up:
Above I wrote the absolute truth about fans. As i pointed out earlier... Once I have said something about a fan then there is nothing left to be said. That's an absolute!!:imao:imao:imao
Geo...

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 02:57 am by George Durbin

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No Geo, no assumptions.

You initially asked and through the course of 4 plus pages you have been answered by some very knowledgeable high end collectors of which I am NOT one.

While it is "in the head" of these collectors, it is also a fact of what they are willing to pay for excellent original examples vs restored examples.

It is simply a fact, no assumptions needed.

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I like what George did with his s4, I'd have probably done exactly the same, fixed what was wrong, cleaned and polished it a bit, I know it's not 5k but it's certainly in the rare category. I must admit the more I look at the polished blades the less I like them, but if they're not laquered then we can watch them patina out nicely. I know he considered painting it red and white, but I talked him out of that.

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John Rothrock wrote: I like what George did with his s4, I'd have probably done exactly the same, fixed what was wrong, cleaned and polished it a bit, I know it's not 5k but it's certainly in the rare category. I must admit the more I look at the polished blades the less I like them, but if they're not laquered then we can watch them patina out nicely. I know he considered painting it red and white, but I talked him out of that.
Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.

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Tim Marks wrote: Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.
I'm not too sure about that Tim.   Here's an original finish R&M 2110 with very shiny blades.

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Steve Stephens wrote: Tim Marks wrote: Even lacquered brass will oxidize nicely over time. The original ones were lacquered and certainly aren't bright and shiny any more.
I'm not too sure about that Tim.   Here's an original finish R&M 2110 with very shiny blades.

Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? 

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Feathervane with original finish and lacquered brass.  Not perfect but still very shiny in most places.  I know it's not the norm but some brass has held up for a century in excellent condition.

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Steve Stephens wrote: Feathervane with original finish and lacquered brass.  Not perfect but still very shiny in most places.  I know it's not the norm but some brass has held up for a century in excellent condition.

Wow! that one I would agree appears to have century old brass on it, spectacular condition too. Regardless, we both know that most lacquered brass is now brown. 

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Tim Marks wrote: Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? I can't prove it Tim and will let the photos speak for themselves.  The rest of those fans are too nice and original to have been polished.  The blades have to have lacquer on them or they would not be so shiny.  I have seen and had other examples of very shiny brass that, best I can tell, looks like the original and unpolished finish including a 1925 GE AOU which I bought in 1970 with original cords and plug paint and base felt.  It was only 35 years old at the time and the overall condition said "original" through and through.

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I do have a nice collection of brass that is brown, no, make that DARK brown and including an R&M 16" Westy tank.  Great patina and a few very small areas of the cast are still bright brass.  .

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Steve Stephens wrote: Tim Marks wrote: Can you prove they weren't polished at some point? I can't prove it Tim and will let the photos speak for themselves.  The rest of those fans are too nice and original to have been polished.  The blades have to have lacquer on them or they would not be so shiny.  I have seen and had other examples of very shiny brass that, best I can tell, looks like the original and unpolished finish including a 1925 GE AOU which I bought in 1970 with original cords and plug paint and base felt.  It was only 35 years old at the time and the overall condition said "original" through and through.
Weren't all GE fans polished and lacquered brass? Right up to the gilt finish era? Those are all brown now.
Brass tarnishes even with lacquer over it, it's just a fact of life. Some more than others but it still happens.

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If I had the $$ to buy any fan I wanted I would! My interest lies in fan collecting at this time Should I hit the lottery I would buy the best available whether restored or not. The exotic fans like Hc's, peerless, early emersons, or ge's, bipolars and countless others are wonderful but. Is there anything better looking than the simple graceful lines of a 20 's  westinghouse 16" brass blade fan with a black steel cage? A 12" 20's emerson with brass bullwinkle blades and steel cage? Emmys are everyday workers and are beautiful!. The ge's collar oscillators, kidneys, Brass bell's are great fans to look at and use and appreciate. I think the zenith of fan design was in the teens and twenties. I know there are many who will feel different and it's ok... what's between my ears is what counts!
Geo...

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GE catalogs-

1899-  "Polished brass fan, Polished brass guard and trimmings."

1901- ditto

1904- ditto

1907- "guard finished in dipped brass, blades lacquered brass"

1908- "guard and blade finished in dipped and lacquered brass"

Jan. 1909.  "guard, blades and trimmings finished in dipped and lacquered brass".

1911- ditto


Jan 1913- ditto

1924- blades polished brass

I can't tell what the original finish was on earlier pancakes but my 1905 is a very nice original with areas of the blades and cage that sure look to have that gilt like finish which I think is an acid dipped and lacquered brass.  You can see the same dipped and lacquered finish on most any BMY or other GE up until they changed to the wartime steel blades.  Upon returning to brass blades the blades were highly polished through 1929 then painted aluminum from 1930 onwards.

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Hi Steve!
Line up 5 of those r&m's and I will show you 5 different finishes! I have owned 3 and they were all different... It is simple why your finish is so nice, it is because it was maintained! Someone took care of it... Is that so hard to believe? How do we not account for Mrs. Smith just took care of it and polished it occasionally?
Geo...

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I thought this was a buy - sell - trade - forum?

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 07:09 am by Troy Addy

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This thread got put here by mistake and probably should be moved by the admins.  Or we can think of it as advice about patina when buying and selling fans.  Now it can belong here.  Patina, 1¢.  Now there is the mandatory posted price for this forum.


George, I think you will find that all of the higher quality R&M fans will all have highly polished brass blades and dipped and lacquered cages from their first AC fans until the end.  What they look like today is what they look like.  What they were when new were all the same I think; polished and lacquered blades, dipped and lacquered cages.

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 07:16 am by Steve Stephens

George Durbin
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Troy Addy wrote: I thought this was a buy - sell - trade - forum?


If your not selling anything, why are you here? Don't participate... If the moderators want to move it, then they will move it.. They can take it down too... So far everyone has been gents and it is a good conversation that is important...  JMHO
Geo..
Ps... join in! Keep it cool! 

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Steve Stephens wrote: This thread got put here by mistake and probably should be moved by the admins.  Or we can think of it as advice about patina when buying and selling fans.  Now it can belong here.  Patina, 1¢.  Now there is the mandatory posted price for this forum.


George, I think you will find that all of the higher quality R&M fans will all have highly polished brass blades and dipped and lacquered cages from their first AC fans until the end.  What they look like today is what they look like.  What they were when new were all the same I think; polished and lacquered blades, dipped and lacquered cages.

Hi Steve!I agree with what yur sayin. I just know that people back in the day cleaned the lacquer right off those fan blades and many had no maintenance... 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...

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George Durbin wrote: 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...

Exactly! But apparently regardless of how many owners they had, they're all original until YOU touch it. ;)

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George Durbin wrote:  I just know that people back in the day cleaned the lacquer right off those fan blades and many had no maintenance... 100 yr. Old fans can have many owners...
Geo...
I'm not sure how you know that people removed the lacquer on the old fans.   Some may have but for what reason?   Some may have polished the brass for obvious reasons.  I have a large number if not a majority of my fans with original finish or lacquer on the blades and brass.  It's not hard to tell if the lacquer remains; lightly polish a tiny spot and see if the rag gets black.

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George Durbin wrote: Hi Steve!
Line up 5 of those r&m's and I will show you 5 different finishes! I have owned 3 and they were all different... It is simple why your finish is so nice, it is because it was maintained! Someone took care of it... Is that so hard to believe? How do we not account for Mrs. Smith just took care of it and polished it occasionally?
Geo...


I'm not sure "care" had as much to do with it as exposure. Sunlight, damp, cold, heat, etc.

Just a tip George, if you want to always be right, write in big bold letters...

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I appreciate *The Kim's* use of 4 point for those of us who don't always have their reading glasses handy.

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Hi Michael!I just type at the #2 size... No one knows what happened to these fans unless there is the ol provenance telling us. You have seen cars with the paint worn through from cleaning them too much? Same with fans. Then you add the enviorments to it and it's like a box of chocolots! I think you are right about enviorments probably plays more into patina!!

Last edited on Tue May 27th, 2014 05:36 pm by George Durbin

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Speaking of R&Ms George, I think some have a different finish because I find it likely that they used a different finsh on the brass. In my opinion, the earlier fans such as the 1404s used more of a gilt finish like some of the GEs. The later models like the 2610 had polished  brass that seemed to generally hold up better than other manufacturers'. I prefer clean patina myself, it makes the fan individual and unique, not the same old grind of polish that makes the fans look alike. I own almost exclusively nice original fans and have found that that category is shrinking. Perhaps those will be worth more in time? It's hard to say.


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